NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

Great that the Scottish press have got this case between its teeth. They will dig for information and publish it. They are not shying away like the BBC.

And are happy to name those with involvement in the case

It does make you question the leaders of the NHS Fife mismanagement team if they follow what an inexperienced 27 year old says on DEI.

what are they going to say? Bumba told us what to do - unbelievable

I love the number of “baffling/baffled” from Michael foran 😆 is that legal speak for “utterly fucking clueless decision only sn absolute fuckwit would make”?

So they heard the disciplinary case in 25th June - that is baffling as Michael Foran says. I would honestly have postponed it until the outcome of the ET was known.

I think so. Also legal arguments described as “novel”. Any time a judge describes your legal argument as “novel”, you know he or she is telling you it’s complete nonsense.

NHS Fife are in so deep that they don’t know how to get out.

If they win then it is game over and TRAs will claim the war is won. SNP will say they have been proved right and Chief Constables can participate in as many Pride Marches as they want. All of the anti JKR media types will be high fiving all over twitter and whatever.

We all think it’s impossible for them to win but they might on some technicality.

It will be an interesting couple of weeks.

Any idea when we get a final judgement?

It's safest to assume about 3 months. They can come out earlier but equally 6 months isn't unheard of.

SNP MSP breaks ranks to call for NHS Fife boss Carol Potter and her board to RESIGN

A Nationalist MSP has broken party ranks to urge NHS Fife bosses to quit over their handling of a transgender legal battle.

Michelle Thomson last night hit out at the health board as it was revealed the dispute with nurse Sandie Peggie had so far cost taxpayers £220,500.

The Falkirk East MSP is the first serving SNP politician to condemn NHS Fife’s handling of the landmark tribunal relating to single-sex spaces.

She accused the board – headed by chief executive Carol Potter, who earns at least £147,700 a year – of a seemingly ‘breathtaking disregard for their duties of good governance and candour’.

And the MSP raised concerns about the ‘direct, and indirect cost to the public purse... at a time when the wider NHS is struggling’.

Continues at https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14899783/SNP-MSP-breaks-ranks-call-NHS-Fife-boss-Carol-Potter-board-RESIGN-gender-storm.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490

(Sorry if link already posted.)

This certainly beats Wimbledon for July's entertainment. I'm particularly looking forward to the cross-examination of Isla Bumba, the young woman in her 20s without any legal knowledge or qualifications, who advised NHS Fife that Upton had a “right” to use the female changing rooms because she “identifies as a woman”. Surely Cunningham will ask her the legal basis for her decision? What, exactly, is she going to say? If I was running NHS FIfe I'd have my head in my hands at that point.

But that’s dreadful. Will we be in a situation where both the ET and the Fife disciplinary do a ‘you go first , no I insist you go first’ comedy term. They may have conflicting results.

SP legal team may well be back in court after a few months more of these shenanigans

The Reddit coverage of this is depressing. (/Scotland and the trans one). (I’m feeling a bit sensitive after some heated conversations at work recently where I’m the only one arguing in favour of women’s rights. At one point my line manager compared me to a nazi in 1930s Germany).

A final bill of close to £1million at a time of increasing taxes and benefits cuts is not a vote winner. Michelle Thomson can’t be the only SNP MSP to realise that.

Don’t worry about Carol Potter too much. She will probably take early retirement with a big payoff later in the year, and enjoy her tax payer funded retirement.

The ET won't care about the timing of the disciplinary decision.

I agree with Foran that the decision to go ahead with the hearing was bonkers. As he says, if the find in favour of Peggie, they've destroyed their case in tribunal. If they find against her, they will have another expensive tribunal case on their hands. The only option I can see that makes any sense for them is to wait for the ET decision and, assuming that goes the way we all expect, decide in Peggie's favour. But even that is an admission that a lot of what has happened in the tribunal should never have happened.

Both r/Scotland and r/unitedkingdom are very TRA.

I've skimmed some reddit subs too. There is a lot of bluster, and some staggering legal literacy, and a fair few bold exaggerations and lies. But also, the members who have actually thought the issues though seem quite despondent and not expecting the outcome to be favourable to them.

The early case management order here, summarises the key complaints under EquAct 2010 (4 directed at Fife, 3 directed at Upton). It's quite possible that, in the finding of facts, some of the complaints may not be upheld. But still, in the light of the SC judgement, it's hard to see how the substantive issues could be dismissed. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yuI7fw0o78Iz40DAHqBRTxqu9NWUDMLE/view (this document is well worth a read if anyone wants a lovely reminder of the witnesses still to be called to testify for Fife Health Board!)

I wonder if they have worked themselves into a postion where they are screwed whatever they do. Depending on their policies, they may have needed to hold the disciplinary within a certain timescale? But disciplinaries aren't like tribunals, you don't usually have much of a delay before hearing the outcome! So it will be vv interesting to hear how they explain that away when it finally comes out.

WRT timescales for the disciplinary, from memory the changing room incident was December 2023 and the patient incident was October 2023 reported April 2024 - they should have got the disciplinary done and dusted well before the ET hearing.

As you say they have messed up so may have decided just to get it done and face the consequences.

Michelle Thomson was one of the SNP MSP's who defied the party whip and voted against the GRR Bill so she has been good on this issue.

Reem Alsalem has weighed in.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/7bd57482-c1e3-4b28-a8de-77cb856b09d7?shareToken=0a875046716eeb89da5ea94d91add204

The United Nations expert on the rights of women and girls has told SNP ministers to immediately implement the Supreme Court ruling on the definition of “sex” in law.

In an interview with The Sunday Times, Alsalem also said that organisations had “punished” those who stood up for their sex-based rights. Referring specifically to Sandie Peggie, the nurse at the centre of an employment tribunal against NHS Fife, Alsalem said that public bodies that failed to support a woman’s right to single-sex spaces were going “against what is now the law of the land”.

Sorry wrong link, not sure how that happened.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/deda0f26-47c8-4bba-9af9-905084bdceae?shareToken=3234bd0d9431102d774e72c84034b396

They’ve gone ahead with the disciplinary hearing in the middle of the ET process - which is about a year later than any sane employment policy would require it to be held? Are NHS Fife wanting another ET after this one concludes?

Precisely @ThreeWordHarpy Fife are in so depth they don’t know when to stop. But I guess if you are wasting around a £1 million of tax payers money then what a couple hundred or so on another on another tribunal.

I think at least some of the delay was due to the original stop-start investigation that NC has begun to uncover with Fife witnesses.

Dr U had his investigation meeting in May. By that time Sandie had lawyered up and was asking questions of Fife as to whether Dr U had a GRC. And Dr U wasn't happy with the notes of his own investigation meeting so in June he had another meeting to agree a re-write of them! And on and on it went...

In the Times articles linked earlier, Michael Foran said we will now see a switch to tribunals where trans people will be taking their employers to court for not letting them access single sex spaces of the opposite sex. But following the Supreme Court ruling, on what basis can these claims succeed? Or will they be arguing that their human rights (article 8?) should supercede those who want single sex spaces?

My understating of his point wasn’t necessarily that they would have success, more that employers will start to comply with the SC ruling ands so the pendulum swings back to sex realism.

It seems more likely to me that an employer would be taken to court for not providing a suitable unisex facility for a trans employee who did not feel able to use the toilet matching their sex. But I would have thought that to be unlikely as most will take the lazy way out and rebadge the disabled loo.