NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

Thanks All for the explanation of how CNORIS works. As you've probably realised, I posted before reading to the end..

The money aspect does seem to interest many chaps in a way they struggle to grasp the other aspects. My DH seemed to be on board with things but has a couple of TM clients who have "a package" and that seemed to muddle his thinking. He said "they are men" and I understood what he meant - he wants to treat them socially as men and it is no threat or problem for him to do so. But when I challenged him on "what is a man then if any woman can have cosmetic surgery to be one?" he got really confused. It's a useful way to differentiate - we should all hopefully accept anyone as they are which is where the social acceptance comes in, but there are times when sex is real and matters and it shouldn't be a problem to address that if/when needed.

Here is the NHS Fife statement put on their website instead of responding directly to the FOIs in a "sleekit" move:
https://www.nhsfife.org/news-updates/latest-news/2025/07/statement-employment-tribunal-legal-costs/

Edited to add full text:

NHS Fife can confirm that, as of 31 May 2025, a total of £220,465.93 has been incurred in legal costs relating to an ongoing Employment Tribunal case brought against the board. This figure includes Counsel fees and services provided by NHS Scotland’s Central Legal Office.

These costs will be reclaimed through the national Clinical Negligence and Other Risks Indemnity Scheme (CNORIS). Under CNORIS, NHS Fife’s financial liability is limited to £25,000, which ensures that the legal proceedings do not impact frontline clinical or patient services.

NHS Fife is not in a position to estimate the full cost of proceedings while the Tribunal remains ongoing.

My bold to highlight what is a serious misrepresentation IMO

NHS Fife, or whatever they are called now after St Andrews link up, is still funded by taxpayers. It’s our money they have been joyfully pissing away, and their weasel words about only £25k is misleading and treating us like idiots. They are acting like a bunch of charlatans being managed by the gap year work experience kids.

It was in the comments of the Times article where commentators mentioned it rather than the article, but yes it’s been public for a few months now. There’s so much to this case is really easy to miss new bits of info. https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-thickness-of-blood/

But he wouldn’t have been one of the girls. In his mind he would have missed out on the fashion tips and make-up chat, and who is a hot doc gossip. In reality we just chat out mundane life stuff

Ah, Mary Lockhart’s brother Patricia. Yes, she was mentioned upthread. I got the impression from comments that she (Mary) might be quietly GC though? But the relationship does potentially complicate things for her, for sure.

Sorry I should have been clearer, I posted in haste. It was my dh that got the “board members spouse” info from the comments in the times article, where the commentators had obviously got some garbled info . But as you say, the knowledge that board member Mary Lockhart has a transgender close relative is not new.

I mean, part of presenting male is to wear a prosthetic 'packer'. It's a very standard piece of equipment for transmen as comparatively few (thankfully) undergo the brutal, multi-step, and complication-prone surgery for phalloplasty.

Sadly, knowing that makes that particular prop somewhat comical, so I don't suggest you disclose it to your DH.

He would have missed opportunities to intimidate and bully women in my opinion. That's what it's all about IMO. Dominance.

It's why a third space is never enough.

Er… this is the equivalent of saying that because Harold Shipman is a doctor who killed a lot of patients, all doctors wish to kill their patients. Making generalisations about all Muslim doctors on the basis of the unlawful and discriminatory behavior of 2 of them is just silly.

Pillow fights, don't forget the pillow fights!

The 2 people DH knows were defo surgical packages/the works which is a huge commitment on their part and what makes it so confusing

My DH was involved in med evac'ing a chap back from Afghanistan minus his 'package' (and his legs) does your DH believe this man is now a woman? Or can he see that there is more to our sex than the absence/presence of a 'package'

And the pillow fights. And the opportunity to borrow panties and bras. And to offer tampons. And to generally do all the exciting things we girlies all always do in the ladies.

Wow. Here I thought I was being a bit cheeky. 😳

Popping back up after a long absence to say the CNORIS thing is absolutely infuriating. My understanding is that CNORIS is basically an insurance fund that all Scottish NHS boards pay into to enable centralized funding of financial costs associated with court cases/negligence payments etc.

www.nss.nhs.scot/legal/clinical-negligence-and-other-risks-indemnity-scheme-cnoris/guide-to-the-clinical-negligence-and-other-risks-indemnity-scheme-cnoris/

According to their website:
The Clinical Negligence and Other Risks Indemnity Scheme (CNORIS) protects members against financial losses. Both clinical and non-clinical claims can be made. Risk is pooled and allocated equally across a number of years.

At the end of each financial year contributions are collected from members. These funds repay the deficit accrued in-year by SGHSCD. The calculation of contributions is based upon a member’s proportion of the overall risks. Clinical and non-clinical risk profiles are set up to assess these risks.

So yes, NHS Fife will only have paid £25k so far for this debacle, but:

• Their CNORIS contribution is about to go up considerably come next financial year
• Other NHS boards might also have to pay more because the legal bill is so big

Given that NHS Scotland is already financially squeezed to the extent that many health boards have a full-on hiring freeze, the glib claim that CNORIS will just pay and that patient care will not be remotely affected is incredibly irresponsible and patently untrue.

That’s awful. I read an article recently by a Ukrainian psychologist who is part of a team supporting soldiers who return from Russian captivity without their penises (apparently some Russians enjoy cutting off the penises of PoWs). Really sad but thought-provoking piece about how these young lads struggle to come to terms living without something that is deemed by society (and themselves) to be essential to the concept of being a man.

Interestingly (sorry, I know this is a digression), given that Ukraine is now the focus of all the top research centres who develop and test prosthetics (and the innovation in truly awesome artificial limbs being driven by the huge numbers of Ukrainian soldiers and civilians in need of them is quite spectacular), there does not appear to be any work being done to give the men who’ve lost their penises the kind of flesh hideosities that are given to TiFs who want penises. The Ukrainian medical establishment appears to be evidence-based; if these frankenphalluses had any genuine usefulness as even non-functioning replacements for men who’ve lost their penises, they would surely be used. The fact that they are not speaks volumes.

I suspect that NHS Fife’s glib comment about the £25,000 is going to backfire quite spectacularly. The tone of that statement is that they consider CNORIS to be a bottomless fund of magic money with which they can fund the most ludicrously baseless legal defenses to their hearts’ content. I do hope the papers & MSPs keep pressing this issue.

In a way, it's probably 'fair' that the fees are paid by a shared indemnity scheme since almost every NHS body has similar policies and this could technically have happened anywhere. Hopefully the shock will hit home to every NHS body that needs it.

We probably will never know the full costs because they can decline to share the costs that were personal to Upton and other witnesses, and cite data protection or whatever.

I bet, in the fullness of time, they can and will be asked to divulge how much their contribution has risen.

Being fair to NHS Fife, they are just the unlucky ones who got caught, with the agression of Upton and the guts of Peggie to stand up to him, if it wasn't Fife it would have been some other health board. Remember these dodgy policies were being pushed down from ScotGov.

Exactly - once you start to think about reality, versus being socially polite the point becomes clear. It was an interesting trajectory from unthinking BeKind to partly informed/sex realist to BeKind-to-Post-Ops and then back around towards Sex Realist but socially polite. I’m still not sure he gets it and complains I’m “angry” about it all. DD (14) pointed out that angry was perfectly reasonable where women’s rights were being stripped away by stealth. So I’ve managed to educate 1 person in the household so far!

I’ve not got that much sympathy for NHS Fife. The policy might have been pushed centrally, but they did not follow their own procedures when a) Sandie first raised her concern and b) when Dr Upton raised his grievance and suddenly remembered an “incident” that could have impacted patient safety (that he can’t actually remember the time and date for and didn’t raise at the time). They still have a live, albeit paused, disciplinary process ongoing against Sandie. All their own doing, not the government.

Ok hold on! Who has been doing all that and not told me?! Never have I swapped tampons or undies in the lavs… Maybe I’m too gender non conformist for wims to think I’d be into that?