NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

Could the time be used to go through evidence on Upton's phone - if that is now included?
Perhaps he had support from all those wellbeing staff for his distress in being told that he was a man being a man. The shock must have been hard for him to take but he probably did lots of hair flicks and head tilts to realign and feel he was womening enough.

I really hope that the phone of the Fragrant Dr Upton-O'Goode has been examined and found wanting.

Yet again NHS Fife refuse to answer questions this time about their alleged tt inaccuracies

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/secretive-nhs-scotland-lawyers-refuse-35422177?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Which would suggest rather that 'inaccuracy' was 'not worded protectively towards us in a way to dress up a bit what we'd done'.

I think someone from TT told us on here what it was after the April hearing. It was a couple of points iirc

Pretty sure they wrote about it on their Substack, with complained-about sentences and what they corrected to (can’t check just this second though…)

ETA - pretty sure it was two sentences.

I remember posting about this when tt issued a correction on their substack for 2 inaccuracies. One did matter a bit, the other, IMO, was still minor.

I also suspect it was really this information didnt reflect well on us and we didnt want you to mention it but it could have been recollections may differ....

The important thing is that the judge didnt see the "evidence" as compelling.

Yes, the errors were fat finger syndrome and misheard speech. Errors, hardly egregious, much less insidious, with intent to deceive.

Unlike, it would seem, NHS Fife.

The two corrections posted on TT's substack were, according to TT, based on Fife's analysis, TT's own recollection and other reports. That is not necessarily the full set of inaccuracies alleged by Fife, just the ones where TT accept they got it wrong. I don't know if Fife alleged other inaccuracies. For anyone who hasn't seen them, the corrections can be seen at Peggie vs NHS Scotland & Dr B Upton - Use of Live Text Based Communications

What category has anyone nominated on? "Nurse" seemed to be the obvious one?

The award requires specific examples "Tell us about the nursing care they provided and what made it so special to the recipient." Any suggestions?

If you have received nursing care from SP, you will know what you found special. I'd be delighted for her if she got recognition for the good work she has done over many many years, but it has to be based on actual experience of her nursing or it's unfair on all the other good nurses at NHS Fife.

NHS Fife's claimed objection was inaccuracies, but the real problem was the accuracies.

Well, quite!

I put defending and safeguarding her colleagues and patients despite considerable opposition.

I also nominated her under Unsung Heroes. I put her solicitor down as the contact person. Did a thread on this but it looks like it’s been deleted.

@prh47bridge I assume NHS FIFE's complainant must have alleged more than that for them to take it to a judge. Having done that I dont think they could have gone back to court unless they alleged more than 2, one minor, errors.

I expect many people who wrote to the court arguing for TT to continue will have made the point that who can say that NHS FIFE's notes and recollections are any more "accurate"?

We dont actually know if the two corrections were things NHS FIFE complained about or things TT realised they needed to correct from looking at other reports.

@anyolddinosaur - Yes, I suspect they alleged more than these items, but there is no way of knowing for sure unless the relevant judgement is published. However, since TT say their corrections are "based on Fife's analysis" amongst other things, I presume they were included in Fife's case. My reading of TT's substack post is that these were two of the items Fife raised and that, after checking with their own memories and other sources, TT think they got these items wrong.

They probably were part of NHS FIFEs case - but you cant actually be sure of that. The process of checking their tweets against other sources could have thrown up something NHS FIFE didnt highlight but other people had mentioned.

I assumed NHS FIFE had a longer list of alleged "inaccuracies" but nothing to prove they were inaccurate except someone else's recollection.

@nauticant
FYI - I know it’s a little premature but as you know last time we were only able to apply for online access the Friday before the hearing.

I emailed Edinburgh ET to ask if we could know what the process will be for July and got this standard response.

“At present the Tribunal will not be providing links to observe the hearing in the above case

Information on how to observe the hearing will be made available in due course

The Tribunal asks that you request a link closer to the time of the hearing”

I thought by emailing now it may get them thinking about the options. I can imagine after all the publicity the number of observers will be very high.

Good thinking
when I wrote to express concern about Fife’s last closed hearing request I suggested that a system like the Supreme Court would be good and would avoid logins if they just live streamed it. Imagine how many viewers they’d get…

I suggested similar like the post office enquiry.

Not at all about being premature, I was thinking I'd soon be contacting Edinburgh ET to get a sense of the lie of the land over whether members of the public would be allowed to observe the proceedings via a video stream.

I see that the reply you received is somewhat ambiguous in terms of what we might expect.

But I am sympathetic to them deciding not to livestream via youtube. You need considerable behind-the-scenes infrastructure in place to make this happen.

Is Sandie still being paid while all this nonsense drags on?
I'd bet the man who created the issues is but concerned that Sandie is ok.

Geuine question, because I don't really know the technicalities of these things - they already have mics and cameras for the dial in access, so what extra infrastructure would they need to do it on YouTube instead of Zoom?

I think she must be, NHS Fife suspended her, they can't suspended her and not pay her because she is still their employee. They didn't sack her (that would be unfair dismissal) and they didn't make her redundant (also unfair dismissal)
While suspended I doubt shs would be able to claim benefits as she is employed and shes not free to look for another job.

All just adds to the cost to NHS Fife.
Hope Sandie has been enjoying chilling in the garden the last week or two, soaking up some sunshine. 🌞

Ill stand corrected if someone with more knowledge comes along