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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

1000 replies

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:15

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
lcakethereforeIam · 13/05/2025 18:59

@WearyAuldWumman I'm so sorry. This is the true cost of the distractions being indulged by the NHS. Nonsense they have the luxury of wasting time and money on. What they shell out in compensation payments may only be 3% of their budget but every penny of that indicates lives blighted or even lost.

I don't understand why they claim they're waiting for guidance. The SC was quite clear. They are breaking the law by not providing single sex facilities for their staff. If ScotGov issues anything that is counter to that they will still be breaking the law. But do they honestly think that will actually happen? For fuck's sake, stop it now with the denial and move onto acceptance. Show some dignity NHS Fife. You're behaving like toddlers.

WandaSiri · 13/05/2025 19:04

WearyAuldWumman · 13/05/2025 16:57

Thank you.

We later found out that other stroke patients were treated in a similar manner that weekend.

Another chap who ended up in the same rehab ward as my husband was found under at trolley in A&E (having fallen whilst unattended) and then under a bed in the Acute Stroke Ward at the Vic. (DH had two falls in there - one out of bed on the day of the stroke. The rehab ward initially thought I'd abused him, so I'm assuming the Acute Stroke Ward 'forgot' to put it in his notes.)

In the corridor of the Acute Stroke ward, I bumped into a former colleague. His wife had had a TIA at the weekend and they just sent her home with no meds. She had a full blown stroke the same night and never woke up.

Her sons did go through legal channels, but I never found out what the outcome was.

That's utterly appalling.

impossibletoday · 13/05/2025 19:32

And The Telegraph

NHS trust in trans row ‘must ban men from women’s lavatories immediately’

www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/4285045479001a08

boobashka · 13/05/2025 20:36

Does anyone know if any other news organisations picked up on the truly traumatic Darlington nurse story covered in the Mail on Sunday over the weekend? I haven't seen anything on the BBC for example. I'd love this to receive widespread coverage. It's so utterly shocking - people need to know what is happening in the NHS.

prh47bridge · 13/05/2025 21:03

lcakethereforeIam · 13/05/2025 18:59

@WearyAuldWumman I'm so sorry. This is the true cost of the distractions being indulged by the NHS. Nonsense they have the luxury of wasting time and money on. What they shell out in compensation payments may only be 3% of their budget but every penny of that indicates lives blighted or even lost.

I don't understand why they claim they're waiting for guidance. The SC was quite clear. They are breaking the law by not providing single sex facilities for their staff. If ScotGov issues anything that is counter to that they will still be breaking the law. But do they honestly think that will actually happen? For fuck's sake, stop it now with the denial and move onto acceptance. Show some dignity NHS Fife. You're behaving like toddlers.

I think the 3% figure may have come from an earlier version of my post, which I edited when I realised I'd used the total figure for Scotland rather than just NHS Fife. It is actually less than 0.2%. Not that it makes it acceptable. If they were doing everything right, they would never have to pay any compensation.

prh47bridge · 13/05/2025 21:06

boobashka · 13/05/2025 20:36

Does anyone know if any other news organisations picked up on the truly traumatic Darlington nurse story covered in the Mail on Sunday over the weekend? I haven't seen anything on the BBC for example. I'd love this to receive widespread coverage. It's so utterly shocking - people need to know what is happening in the NHS.

It has also been picked up by the Telegraph and GB News. I can't see any wider coverage of her story, which is bad.

boobashka · 13/05/2025 21:09

That's really bad @prh47bridge ! The Telegraph and GB news are surely preaching to the converted. It really needs more widespread coverage.

ScrollingLeaves · 13/05/2025 21:57

prh47bridge · 13/05/2025 21:06

It has also been picked up by the Telegraph and GB News. I can't see any wider coverage of her story, which is bad.

I have just read that and it beggars belief.
Is there any chance Janice Turner will write about it in the Times, I wonder?
www.gbnews.com/news/darlington-nurse-punished-nhs-trust-pestered-trans-colleague-female-changing-room

NImumconfused · 13/05/2025 22:33

KnottyAuty · 13/05/2025 18:19

In her first statement since the Supreme Court ruling, she welcomed the judgement and pledged to continue litigation against NHS Fife.

It said the nurse was "determined to continue with her legal claim in an effort to obtain accountability for the way she has been treated by Fife health board".
Her lawyer added: "She now expects NHS Fife to immediately stop permitting any man who identifies as a woman access to female-only single-sex spaces in the workplace."

An NHS Fife spokesperson said the tribunal "involves a range of complex matters, including an internal investigation that was initiated following concerns raised by a member of staff".

They added: "NHS Fife believes it had a responsibility to fully investigate such matters."

Excellent news that Sandie has no intention of settling.

Still defending the indefensible - but is it just me or is the spokesperson for NHS Fife seeming a little less bullish?

The nerve of them making that comment about having a responsibility to fully investigate, when we've already seen in the tribunal what a travesty their so-called investigation was!!😡

ArchibaldBoyd · 14/05/2025 09:56

NImumconfused · 13/05/2025 22:33

The nerve of them making that comment about having a responsibility to fully investigate, when we've already seen in the tribunal what a travesty their so-called investigation was!!😡

Well to be fair they did seem a little confused about what an investigation was, and whether there had been an investigation investigation or just an "investigation."

If they are now fully committed to a full investigative investigation by actual investigating investigators, that's a plus.

Madcats · 14/05/2025 10:13

Has the judge opined about the request to restrict access to the livestream for July etc?

I wonder what, if anything, was on that phone.

Stay strong, Sandie!

prh47bridge · 14/05/2025 11:38

Madcats · 14/05/2025 10:13

Has the judge opined about the request to restrict access to the livestream for July etc?

I wonder what, if anything, was on that phone.

Stay strong, Sandie!

I've not seen any published decision as yet.

nauticant · 14/05/2025 16:21

See this:

x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1922669686765850982

OP posts:
Justme56 · 14/05/2025 16:22

It’s been published and the restriction by NHS Fife to stop TT and the general public having access has been turned down.

https://x.com/sexmattersorg/status/1922671074086367433?s=46&t=ZX_bLozRqm8etdGICMcAvA

https://x.com/sexmattersorg/status/1922671074086367433?s=46&t=ZX_bLozRqm8etdGICMcAvA

BezMills · 14/05/2025 16:28

They have a saying "shy bairns get nae sweets".

A lesser known saying applies here. "Sleekit bams can get tae fuck"

CriticalCondition · 14/05/2025 16:31

Yesss! Excellent news!
Has the judge's reasoning been made public?

CriticalCondition · 14/05/2025 16:33

And do we know the outcome of the application for Upton's phone?

Hermiaxx · 14/05/2025 16:34

@Justme56 that link has been deleted but this is great news (@nauticant’s link to TT confirms) 🥳

lcakethereforeIam · 14/05/2025 16:45
freddie mercury GIF

And...

SternJoyousBee · 14/05/2025 17:02

And NHS Fife just keep on losing…hopefully the run will continue

TheOtherRaven · 14/05/2025 17:14

Justme56 · 14/05/2025 16:22

It’s been published and the restriction by NHS Fife to stop TT and the general public having access has been turned down.

https://x.com/sexmattersorg/status/1922671074086367433?s=46&t=ZX_bLozRqm8etdGICMcAvA

Jolly good.

JasmineAllen · 14/05/2025 17:18

nauticant · 14/05/2025 16:21

Fantastic news.

I'm looking forward to the mystery of Uptons phone records being uncovered, his boss being dragged to the stand cross examined and if we're really lucky a reappearance of that nurse who is such an embarrassment to her profession that she doesn't know if wearing certain clothes changes your chromosomes 😂

Having previously worked for the NHS as a staff nurse I've always known there was high level of incompetence in some quarters (not to mention bullying) but Fife have taken it to new levels.

Go Sandie !!!

WearyAuldWumman · 14/05/2025 17:19

Early last year, I went to my GP with symptoms of uterine cancer. Was told that I was on the two-week pathway by my GP.

Several weeks later, phoned Fife's gynae dept. Was told that it was at least a 16 wk wait because I'm post-menopausal, but would probably be longer because I'd requested a woman doctor. (I was 'interfered with' by a teenage boy when I was 7, but there's also the fact that a couple of years previously I had an absolutely brutal experience at the hands of a male gynae at the Vic.)

I can't recount the precise conversation, and this was before Sandie Peggie's ordeal hit the news. Even so, there was something strange about the way that my request for a female doctor was framed.

I heard myself blurting out that it wasn't anything political, but I'd had a previous bad experience...

Anyway, I got an appointment with a female gynae at Queen Margaret at about 14 wks. Biopsy was done and I was then referred to Minor Ops for a hysteroscopy.

The appointment came much more quickly, followed by a phone call from a gynae secretary, apologising that she'd not seen my request for a female doctor.

It looked like a different name from the bloke who'd hurt me and I was obviously concerned about the possibility of cancer, so I accepted the appointment with the male doctor. As it turned out, the rest of his team was female and he was absolutely brilliant.

The point that I'm making in this rambling post - and maybe I am reading too much into my conversations - is that I think that the Upton case has had ripples right through NHS Fife.

Harassedevictee · 14/05/2025 17:25

Has someone jumped the gun with the announcement as The Herald is showing a headline on Google but the link is not working?

KnottyAuty · 14/05/2025 17:37

Harassedevictee · 14/05/2025 17:25

Has someone jumped the gun with the announcement as The Herald is showing a headline on Google but the link is not working?

I think so. The Sex Matters link above is also not working. There must be a hold on news from the court... can't wait to hear about the phone..... cant wait to hear about the phone..... or R3..... I'm not going to get any work done this entire year at this rate

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