NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

I would think that they would only run cases which are assessed to have reasonable prospects of success (51% chance or more in civil cases, though they may have a higher threshold themselves which they require cases to have).

However, they could only bring it to an end if the person bringing the claim will settle. So they may be forced into continuing if they can't agree terms of settlement.

The following is an oversimplification, but it will do for the purposes of this discussion.

In general, when a public sector body such an NHS Trust is sued, it pays for its own defence or claims it from their insurers. They don't claim the money back from the government. The same is true with any settlement they agree or damages that are awarded. So no, they don't make a claim for public funding and have to justify their actions. If they have insurance, their insurer will decide whether to defend the claim but, even then, they can choose to defend the claim from their own funds if the insurer refuses.

Public sector bodies are, however, under a duty to avoid misusing public funds. They may be in trouble with their auditors if they spend large sums of money defending cases where they are bound to lose. But, given that it is clear many public sector bodies are captured and are trying to find ways to ignore the court rulings in Forstater, Phoenix, FWS, etc., I think public funds may continue to be used to defend the indefensible for a while.

Thanks for that explanation. I hope the next cases are costly (reputation and financial) and insurers decide, sooner rather than later, not to support cases when women are simply asking for their rights to be upheld.

Note that Scottish health organisations have a mutual liability fund (CNORIS) rather than commercial liability insurance, so they are still spending Health Service money.

@prh47bridge with respect as this may be different for NHS, but in the Civil Service Departments do not have insurance, costs come from departmental budgets but depending on the amount they may require approval from Cabinet Office/Treasury. So the £116k Eleanor Frances was awarded will have come from public funds.

Added to say this is why I believe the CS will be very careful not to have a repeat.

I said it was a simplification!

In broad terms, my description applies to areas where funding is devolved - NHS trusts, universities, schools, etc. Some of these have public sector insurance schemes such as CNORIS, CNST, etc. Some use private sector insurers. Some don't insure against all risks. Their spending on legal cases does not have to be approved by the Treasury. Civil Service Departments, on the other hand, do have to have certain spending approved. And this is still an oversimplification!

@prh47bridge thank you 😀

Saw a story in the local papers today, stating that Fife NHS has lost a great deal of money on settling claims with patients. At this rate, they'll not have the money to settle with Sandie Peggie.

https://www.dunfermlinepress.com/news/25158463.roz-mccall-msp-criticises-nhs-fife-compensation-payments/

They'll carry on wasting public money unless and until someone is made personally liable. Job losses are not enough, they'll just stay at home and make bread for a few months and then take up another well-paid position somewhere else in the NHS.

£2m a year on NHS Fife alone?!
wow

To put this into context, NHS Fife has annual expenditure of around £1.5 billion. Spending £10 million over 5 years therefore represents less than 0.2% of their total expenditure over that period.

Eye watering.

Given what happened to my husband, I'm not surprised.

I mentioned this on one of the previous threads. We didn't claim, but my late husband's ischaemic stroke was misdiagnosed as a TIA on a busy Saturday morning in A&E at the Vic.

I asked when he was getting a scan "Oh, they'll fit him in when they have time."

Turns out that the junior doctor in A&E hadn't been given the info that the stroke had just happened that morning. Because some uncontrolled movement came back in the first hour and because he was sensible, DH's stroke was misdiagnosed as probably being a TIA - and no urgency to scan.

It wasn't until a senior doctor came in and spoke to me that they scanned him. By then, he was at the edge of the 4 hr window for the clot buster, so they gave him an aspirin instead of the injection. He was left with life-changing disabilities.

I could fill a page with Victoria Hospital fuck-ups. Upton probably fitted right in.

Agreed. Although job losses would be a start. At the moment you can see the consequences of no accountability - people paid out of the public purse essentially bragging that they're breaking the law.

Possibly job losses plus barring from working in the NHS might be enough. People need to be made to take responsibility for their unlawful decisions.

I'm so sorry, that's awful.

Thank you.

We later found out that other stroke patients were treated in a similar manner that weekend.

Another chap who ended up in the same rehab ward as my husband was found under at trolley in A&E (having fallen whilst unattended) and then under a bed in the Acute Stroke Ward at the Vic. (DH had two falls in there - one out of bed on the day of the stroke. The rehab ward initially thought I'd abused him, so I'm assuming the Acute Stroke Ward 'forgot' to put it in his notes.)

In the corridor of the Acute Stroke ward, I bumped into a former colleague. His wife had had a TIA at the weekend and they just sent her home with no meds. She had a full blown stroke the same night and never woke up.

Her sons did go through legal channels, but I never found out what the outcome was.

Oh that is awful. I’m so sorry

😢that's so awful.

I am really sorry @WearyAuldWumman x

Apols if it’s been posted already

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyvnnxxvwxo.amp

In her first statement since the Supreme Court ruling, she welcomed the judgement and pledged to continue litigation against NHS Fife.

It said the nurse was "determined to continue with her legal claim in an effort to obtain accountability for the way she has been treated by Fife health board".
Her lawyer added: "She now expects NHS Fife to immediately stop permitting any man who identifies as a woman access to female-only single-sex spaces in the workplace."

An NHS Fife spokesperson said the tribunal "involves a range of complex matters, including an internal investigation that was initiated following concerns raised by a member of staff".

They added: "NHS Fife believes it had a responsibility to fully investigate such matters."

Excellent news that Sandie has no intention of settling.

Still defending the indefensible - but is it just me or is the spokesperson for NHS Fife seeming a little less bullish?

Telegraph too:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/05/13/nhs-trust-trans-row-ban-men-female-lavatories-now/

I'm so happy she's feeling strong enough to continue the very much needed fight. Moreover, she is highlighting that Fife need to stop men using the women's facilities now.
Imagine Upton may finally hear, "no use the male facilities!".

Also in the Times:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/75756f25-1168-4cfb-918c-8bb5f9b549fa?shareToken=218d8a8d67223de70fed2d7bcc6d0dad

I noticed the BBC report refers to Dr Upton by name throughout: no pronouns. Is this an indication of the way the wind is blowing?

Reading between the lines it looks like Sandie won’t be settling