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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

1000 replies

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:15

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
TheOtherRaven · 06/05/2025 16:27

lcakethereforeIam · 05/05/2025 23:52

This story is appalling

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-sexual-assault-nursing-and-midwifery-council-b2740778.html

The NHS doesn't seem to care for the safety of their female staff and patients at all. Check out the type of patients the guy was caring for 😠

No one sees and no one cares. No matter how many times it happens.

But make a man with a trans identity sad by requiring him to respect a woman's legal rights instead of sacrificing her to his ego?

Drama and robe tearing as far as the eye can see.

Cismyfatarse · 06/05/2025 21:24

JanesLittleGirl · 05/05/2025 22:45

Dr Upton was last reported as working in Anesthetics. Is there any probability that you will need an Anaesthetist?

Not a chance I am going to sleep there, drugged or otherwise. No. Won’t need one at this point. Dodgy foot and initial appointment only.

Cismyfatarse · 06/05/2025 21:35

When do we think we will hear about the phone?

Enough4me · 06/05/2025 23:02

I don't understand all of the legal updates on here, but hope that Sandie is well and that seeing the thread or hopefully hearing about it is motivating.
I expect Fife hoped the interest would die down but, with the supreme court update, I expect even more people are excited with the prospect that she should rightly win.
I think everything starts up again in July?

KnottyAuty · 07/05/2025 08:07

Enough4me · 06/05/2025 23:02

I don't understand all of the legal updates on here, but hope that Sandie is well and that seeing the thread or hopefully hearing about it is motivating.
I expect Fife hoped the interest would die down but, with the supreme court update, I expect even more people are excited with the prospect that she should rightly win.
I think everything starts up again in July?

2 weeks from the 14th or 15th?
I’ll not get a stitch of work done

SerenaSemolena · 07/05/2025 09:42

I've always been so impressed with how brave some women are against all this.

I've always been certain I would be exactly the same if it happened to me, and the only tim's I'd ever met had been peaceful and troubled, and not invasive or aggressive.

However, I saw a completely different man recently. Huge, massive feet and hands, and a really aggressive vibe. Wig and dress. If I'd been in a toilet or changing room, I just know I would have gotten out asap, and not dared to say anything. I'm ashamed to admit that, but it's true.

Brings home the bravery of Sandie, the Darlington nurses, FWS and the hundreds of others who stood up against them. Regularly. And under threat of castigation and loss of career.

❤️

Needspaceforlego · 07/05/2025 09:57

@SerenaSemolena totally agree.
I think most women would scurry out of the way than stand up and speak up.

It is total admiration for Sandie to stand up she put her career on the line for this. Especially standing alone.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 07/05/2025 10:02

Needspaceforlego · 07/05/2025 09:57

@SerenaSemolena totally agree.
I think most women would scurry out of the way than stand up and speak up.

It is total admiration for Sandie to stand up she put her career on the line for this. Especially standing alone.

There a recent thread on here about a post on Twix by Legal Feminist, who say:

If you make a fuss, you may end up losing your job in circumstances that give you a strong discrimination claim.

But for most people most of the time, a job is a better thing to have than even the strongest imaginable discrimination claim.

And that is from the legal bods who are supporting the brave women who have come forward.

Needspaceforlego · 07/05/2025 12:34

Totally. Most people don't have the stomach to go through with discrimination claims.
I cannot imagine the toll this must have taken on Sandie.
I'll lay a bet they'll be other nurses who avoided using those changing rooms if they could.

KnottyAuty · 07/05/2025 15:10

Needspaceforlego · 07/05/2025 12:34

Totally. Most people don't have the stomach to go through with discrimination claims.
I cannot imagine the toll this must have taken on Sandie.
I'll lay a bet they'll be other nurses who avoided using those changing rooms if they could.

They were mentioned. Some stood outside. Others used the cleaning cupboard. The management at NHS Fife thought it was OK for the women to do that so I think it would be difficult to argue that cupboard was now not ok for any TW...

In Darlington I believe that all the women are still using a tiny old office/cupboard while "Rose" is using the original ladies changing room. What woman would be able to tolerate the judgement from others' about taking up all that space for themselves. FFS it is hard enough laying claim to a whole entire bus seat when some chap sits "space-invading-legs-akimbo"!?

Needspaceforlego · 07/05/2025 18:11

You know given the shite that came out a certain person's mouth the other day.
I almost feel sorry for the management at NHS Fife.
So many people including women at the very very top willing to throw other women's dignity to the wall in favour of their ideology.

I just cannot work out why.

NeedToChangeName · 08/05/2025 09:56

I'm assuming Sandie Peggie case will settle. Surely NHS can't continue to defend this case?

I'm predicting -
(1) NHS thanks Supreme Court for clarifying this issue that was previously so terribly unclear (ha!)
(2) confidential settlement
(3) bland joint statement that it's been difficult for all involved
(4) Dr Upton will be furious

fanOfBen · 08/05/2025 10:04

I dunno, it's tricky, especially as the Supreme Court case is really not relevant as it only affects GRC holders! NHS Fife already didn't have a leg to stand on there and still don't. There was speculation that NHS Fife likely wanted to settle earlier but Sandy wouldn't. ET claimants can usually be forced into settling by being offered financial compensation more than the ET would award, right? In this case, though, given Sandy apparently has a backer with deep pockets, perhaps that might not be so easy... She might actually hold out for a statement that NHS Fife had behaved wrongly and will never do such a thing again. We'll see...

Peregrina · 08/05/2025 10:09

I certainly hope she refuses to accept a confidentiality clause. I would also like to see a statement that the disciplinary charge will be dropped, with an apology to her. No doubt they will stick to 1) and if Upton is furious - good.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 08/05/2025 10:12

fanOfBen · 08/05/2025 10:04

I dunno, it's tricky, especially as the Supreme Court case is really not relevant as it only affects GRC holders! NHS Fife already didn't have a leg to stand on there and still don't. There was speculation that NHS Fife likely wanted to settle earlier but Sandy wouldn't. ET claimants can usually be forced into settling by being offered financial compensation more than the ET would award, right? In this case, though, given Sandy apparently has a backer with deep pockets, perhaps that might not be so easy... She might actually hold out for a statement that NHS Fife had behaved wrongly and will never do such a thing again. We'll see...

I hope so. She deserves grovelling apologies from all concerned - the NHS Fife board, Bumba, whatshername of the incontinent email, her manager and colleagues who haven't supported her, and above all Dr Upton. And the Scottish government.

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 08/05/2025 10:19

I think they’ll all just claim it was all very unclear, they were just trying to be kind, it’s only troublemaker and - gasp! Trump supporter ! - Sandie who made a fuss and can we all just pls move on now, nothing to see here.

(that’s obviously sarcasm, in case anyone misunderstands… although I actually do believe there are do-gooder TRAs who really will still try to use the Trump hotel stuff as evidence of wrongthink)

Conxis · 08/05/2025 10:23

Yes if Sandie settles, which I would totally understand if she does as the stress must be horrendous, I hope she will hold out for a public apology from those involved and guarantees they have changed their policies

lnks · 08/05/2025 10:24

If I were Sandie I wouldn’t settle unless Dr Upton was made to retract the vindictive, spiteful lies he told about her endangering patient care etc.

TheOtherRaven · 08/05/2025 10:30

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 08/05/2025 10:12

I hope so. She deserves grovelling apologies from all concerned - the NHS Fife board, Bumba, whatshername of the incontinent email, her manager and colleagues who haven't supported her, and above all Dr Upton. And the Scottish government.

Yes. It's a lot more complicated than being required to let Upton spectate if she was taking her clothes off. The SC ruling scuppered any chance there. (Although if Labour get their way Upton can have a little app that gives him that privilege right back, plus any other man who wants it).

The suspension, the disciplinary charges, the way the whole situation was handled is a good part of the case. There's a lot more to thrash out there and be admitted to.

Conxis · 08/05/2025 10:31

lnks · 08/05/2025 10:24

If I were Sandie I wouldn’t settle unless Dr Upton was made to retract the vindictive, spiteful lies he told about her endangering patient care etc.

I see this as the reason she may turn down a settlement and wish to continue.
There’s more at stake here than just the changing rooms and, having the courts opinion on the quality of Dr Uptons batshitery evidence, will help her case.
He tried to take her down and I wouldn’t blame her for doing the same to Dr Upton

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 08/05/2025 10:33

I completely agree and I really do hope they are held to account. I’m hoping the ET hold firm and find for her on the wider issues.

Needspaceforlego · 08/05/2025 11:12

I hope she does hold out.
Yes NHS Fife under estimated her resolve to get this heard in a ET. They also under estimated then Magically deep pockets of her backer.

It's really not just about the changing room. It's about Upton disrespecting women including patients.
And him trying to trash her career.

The case is almost like God's Gift to women. It's has so much in it. And probably the reason why her backer choose to back her.

💪 Stay strong Sandie

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 08/05/2025 11:54

Needspaceforlego · 07/05/2025 18:11

You know given the shite that came out a certain person's mouth the other day.
I almost feel sorry for the management at NHS Fife.
So many people including women at the very very top willing to throw other women's dignity to the wall in favour of their ideology.

I just cannot work out why.

In a way, all public bodies subjected to the batshit bonkers ideals that certain politicians are still trying to justify, there’s a cost whichever way they jump. It’s just that ‘til now, they’ve all jumped on throwing women under the bus because the perceived cost not to, has been far too much for individuals with responsibility to bear. That’s both the spineless & self preservation option that the grown ups (who should know better) have gone with.

We’re still seeing a massive pushback against the FWS judgement despite knowing for sure that ‘inclusive’ provision that allows any men into single sex spaces/services is unlawful & opens the provider up to litigation risks. There’s a lot of closed door co-ordination going on, to convince those facing those risks that it’ll be ‘sorted’ one way or another - the Data Bill that Sex Matters have been lobbying on for clear accurate data on sex to be enshrined in that bill, is one angle that’s being grasped onto. Sturgeon suggesting the EA2010 needs to be looked at (specifically to remove the rights women & girls have under that for SSSs) is another.

We are in a different era on this stuff now, because in order to re-establish male inclusion into female provision, all those pushing for it have to clearly state they don’t believe women & girls deserve privacy, dignity, safety & opportunities to participate in society. Thats pure, naked, misogyny. For a lot of the feminists who have been complicit in this whole batshit nonsense, actively playing a part in removing women’s rights, that’s going to be a hard sell for some. The rest will grasp onto it anyway & continue to insist that women’s rights are bigoted/transphobic/fascist etc. etc.

With all of this going on in the background, this is all way too much to hang on Sandie’s shoulders IMO. She needs to look after herself & consider what it takes for her to feel vindicated & satisfied with the outcome achieved. She’s done us all a massive service to expose the impact of the widespread ‘education’ so many public & corporate bodies have taken into their policies, and it makes it that bit easier for the next women or girl to speak up & challenge it when it happens. But we’ll all still have to deal with it as it’s not going away any time soon & the endless whackamole efforts of the trans lobbyists means we’ll probably still be battling against the next switch & bait tactic, well into our dotage.

Jolyon (GLP) claimed that MP Nadie Whittome was given assurances over the Data Bill that the efforts to add an amendment ensuring sex data was accurate would not succeed, and that’s what happened yesterday. The MP who stood up to take Qs on the bill & responded to the amendment was Chris Bryant - the same MP who was in the chat group with another, unhappy with EHRC Chair’s comments on sport & SSSs having to now exclude men claiming to be women. There are still a lot of very influential people in positions to thwart the efforts we’re all making to preserve women’s rights. And we’ll always need to be vigilant over what’s going on. In Scotland, they’ve been looking at the PSED to be ‘updated’, with the likes of Maggie Chapman & Karen Adams (both zealots over male inclusion in women’s provision) on the committee looking at it, and the make up of the bill skewed in favour of the SNP who are only too happy to try another way to get their ideological agenda to bear fruit. It’s endless & it’s going to be a long hard battle to ensure all the tinkering around the edges with other legislation that undermines our rights doesn’t succeed.

The one thing we have in our favour now is that it’s not easy to hide what’s going on & the whole stealth aspect of the past has been destroyed. We just need to keep watching, ensuring any attempts to rewrite the legal rights we have are robustly challenged whenever it comes up.

The EHRC are going to have to step up and start tackling all of this, to ensure that women like Sandie Peggy don’t have to face this alone, or rely on the deep pockets of anonymous supporters to have a fighting chance of defending themselves. The problem they face is that the widespread refusal to update policies to make sure they’re legal is still so embedded, they’ll be inundated with complaints. That’s going to take resources they don’t yet have.

nauticant · 08/05/2025 12:18

Unless NHS Fife find some way to break out of ideological thinking, they'd rather go down in flames, waste even more public money, and trash their reputation, than give the kind of reasonable redress Sandie Peggie would require.

Also, unless the mysterious backer suddenly pulls out or scales back his or her support, and Sandie Peggie just reaches a point of being so sick of this that she wants it to be brought to a swift conclusion, then both the mysterious backer and Peggie be highly motivated to drag more people into the hearing to demonstrate that they're dangerous fools and to get a blistering written judgment.

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 08/05/2025 12:31

I have to say that I'm full of admiration for Sandie and the other women, with related cases. Even now, it's going to the wire and she's sticking to her guns; hopefully, it'll end up a slam dunk for her.

If I were in a similar situation, even if Naomi herself told me, "You cannot possibly lose, innit... but you won't earn for 2, maybe even years." I'd be tempted to fold.

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