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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

1000 replies

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:15

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 08/05/2025 12:36

That’s what’s so compelling about this case, isn’t it? NC uncovered so much in her cross examinations that there are so many more questions over what went on, who said/did what & to what end, that there’s a strong motive for SP pushing this as far as she can, to get as comprehensive a judgement as possible, in her favour.

It’s still a massive burden on her shoulders, even if it remains personal to her, and in her interest to get as much as she can from the outcome.

I don’t envy her at all. But from everything I’ve seen & heard from her, she’s a decent, hard working, woman who has depths of strength that I aspire to have. And we’re all lucky that if she does see this through to judgement, instead of accepting a deal that lets NHS Fife, the BMA, Upton & his ‘allies’ off the hook, the judgement will resonate in ways that will likely match what’s happened from the FWS judgement.

It’ll at the very least, refocus the minds of those now faced with significant repercussions of not acting in response to the outcome, instead of shrugging & leaving things to cause more harm to women.

nauticant · 08/05/2025 12:38

If you win your case
If you win your case, the tribunal can order the losing party to do certain things depending on the type of case. Examples include:
paying you compensation
paying you any witness expenses you’ve paid
taking steps to reduce the effects of discrimination against you
giving you your job back, if appropriate

I'd imagine that part of Sandie Peggie's strategy will be to request the tribunal to make a number of orders around the allegations made against her.

OP posts:
Enough4me · 08/05/2025 12:52

nauticant · 08/05/2025 12:38

If you win your case
If you win your case, the tribunal can order the losing party to do certain things depending on the type of case. Examples include:
paying you compensation
paying you any witness expenses you’ve paid
taking steps to reduce the effects of discrimination against you
giving you your job back, if appropriate

I'd imagine that part of Sandie Peggie's strategy will be to request the tribunal to make a number of orders around the allegations made against her.

Would the discrimination against Sandie be due to Upton pretending to be female, or Fife being aware he's a male in female facilities or something else?
I'm wondering who gets the blame!

Needspaceforlego · 08/05/2025 13:05

Enough4me · 08/05/2025 12:52

Would the discrimination against Sandie be due to Upton pretending to be female, or Fife being aware he's a male in female facilities or something else?
I'm wondering who gets the blame!

It has to be Fife that gets the blame.
There is no contract between Sandie Peggie and Upton.

And Fife were trying to bully her into shutting up.

TheOtherRaven · 08/05/2025 13:26

Not to mention what looks at the moment like a very badly handled process, and career ending accusations that may from the case so far, turn out not be entirely accurate. Which would have been bad enough, but it also appears that the reasons for initiating all of these accusations and process may also turn out to have been questionable.

Sandie's career may have been permanently ended by this group of people and the management behind them, and she will need the financial recompense for this loss of income and pension, particularly if she cannot return to work. And that's before the additional recompense is considered for having her periods discussed all over the national press, the damage to her emotionally and socially, the costs and stress involved, and all the rest of it.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 08/05/2025 15:09

Needspaceforlego · 08/05/2025 13:05

It has to be Fife that gets the blame.
There is no contract between Sandie Peggie and Upton.

And Fife were trying to bully her into shutting up.

I think (but I’m not sure/certain as IANAL) the fact that Upton is a named respondent (I’d imagine the application to add his colleague who sent the inappropriate email would extend this to her as well, if granted) may extend ‘blame’ to him in his capacity as being the source of the allegations against SP. Usually, it’s about employers being vicariously liable for the actions of an employee where someone experiences discrimination and/or a detriment. But, I’m guessing being named alongside the employer who enabled the policy that was unlawful, leaves him exposed to being ‘blamed’ i.e. found liable in addition to the employer. I think a lot will depend on the next stage of the tribunal, how much disclosure has been complied with, what that shows, and whether there’s enough to either show Upton was genuine in his belief that what SP did was a detriment to him, with the impact on his mental health evidenced (so along the lines of he may well have been wrong, or mistaken, but his reactions/responses were not bad faith/intentionally reactive to cause a detriment). So, he might well be the starting point of the victimisation/harassment/discrimination towards SP, but he was not ultimately responsible for the outcomes/detriments SP suffered. Or, the disclosure shows the deliberate intent to cause SP maximum detriments (from discussions with the BMA, and/or anyone else who he discussed how to respond to the NHS investigation etc.) in response to her challenging him/his presence in the female changing room. What that means for him, and whatever judgement that the tribunal make (for financial compensation) I don’t know.

I know from my own work where you have parties jointly & severally liable for money owed, you weigh up where you’re most likely to get a guarantee of securing the money. Where there is more than one party involved deemed liable, you look at their financial position & take steps against everyone but you’ll likely pursue the one who has the means to repay. And that’s not just about having money in the bank. It’s assets as well. So I wouldn’t say Upton, if deemed liable too, is able to escape action to pursue financial compensation if he doesn’t have personal/professional insurance that covers any court award against him. It’ll be down to what advice SP’s solicitors give her in terms of likely prospects of success in securing the full amount that may be awarded, if she succeeds in her case & gets compensation awarded as well.

I think as the umpteen threads on this case alone shows, we could speculate all day long about how this might end & who will ultimately pay the price. NHS Fife I think are far more likely to be in the frame for ‘blame’ as they had a choice on how to deal with the situation & they have the power to have the significant impact on SP, or deal with the whole thing in a different way that doesn’t result in the detriments SP has suffered. But, depending on what the next stage shows from disclosure & how that affects Upton’s evidence given so far, I don’t think Upton can feel secure at this point in escaping significant consequences of the judgement goes heavily against him.

But, who knows 🤷🏻‍♀️ I’ve never been involved in an employment tribunal & haven’t got a clue to what extent Upton is exposed to having to at least contribute towards any compensation order that might be made in SP’a favour. Here’s hoping all our questions will be answered come July!

vandelier · 08/05/2025 15:42

Is it a certainty that NHS Fife will lose here? Just afraid of tempting fate, that's all, since most posts seem to suggest that it's a slam dunk in favour of SP.

Being devil's advocate, are there any grounds the outcome for SP might be shaky?

lnks · 08/05/2025 16:19

vandelier · 08/05/2025 15:42

Is it a certainty that NHS Fife will lose here? Just afraid of tempting fate, that's all, since most posts seem to suggest that it's a slam dunk in favour of SP.

Being devil's advocate, are there any grounds the outcome for SP might be shaky?

I don’t see any way she can lose. The hospital were legally obliged to provide single sex facilities, as made clear by the SC ruling.

Bannedontherun · 08/05/2025 16:21

The NHS are obliged to provide single sex toilets and changing facilities for workers under the Workplace (health and safety) Directive 1992.

The only question was could a person who presents as the opposite sex to that which they were born qualify as female.

This was answered in the SC ruling as a firm no, even if the person holds a GRC.

So slam dunk for most of the claim.

Did Dr Upton’s have any personal liability as well?

I would say so because he continued to use female facilities even though he had been asked by Sandie not to.

prh47bridge · 08/05/2025 16:25

vandelier · 08/05/2025 15:42

Is it a certainty that NHS Fife will lose here? Just afraid of tempting fate, that's all, since most posts seem to suggest that it's a slam dunk in favour of SP.

Being devil's advocate, are there any grounds the outcome for SP might be shaky?

Nothing is ever completely certain when dealing with the courts. However, it is very difficult to see a route to NHS Fife winning following the SC judgement. They were obliged to provide single sex changing facilities and failed to do so. Everything stems from that. I may be wrong but I think the best they can hope for is that SP is held to be partly to blame, which would reduce any damages awarded to her, but even that seems unlikely.

Waitwhat23 · 08/05/2025 16:26

Given the clearly made up concerns about patient safety which were only miraculously 'remembered' months later and were intended to drive Sandie Peggie out of her career altogether, I hope she nails him to the fucking wall.

If Upton doesn't face disciplinary measures for that bullshite, then I'd be waging war if it was me.

Harassedevictee · 08/05/2025 17:34

One key issue for Fife hospital is whether or not they followed their own processes e.g. Suspending Sandie, Investigation etc. I suspect not.

vandelier · 08/05/2025 17:48

I suppose I'm just surprised that NHS Fife have not yet thrown in the towel and admitted defeat. If what you all say is the case, then what is the point of carrying on the charade anymore? Do they have something else up their sleeves?

Maybe it's a reluctance to "settle", and maybe there are other issues at play. I have been reading back with interest, and perhaps SP will not settle either. Who knows?

I'm a bit puzzled that's all, if it's such an open and shut issue.

nauticant · 08/05/2025 17:53

If they give up Sandie Peggie would most likely continue and the result would probably be a judgment even more strongly in her favour. They're looking at damage limitation.

They'd need to get her to drop her claim. They'd have to accept A LOT of conditions to meet her reasonable requests and they'd need to throw Upton to the wolves. Even then Peggie might say "you know what? let's continue with this till the conclusion of proceedings and see what's in the judgment".

OP posts:
vandelier · 08/05/2025 17:58

Ah, I didn't realise that even if NHSF conceded, that SP could continue on an ex parte basis. That's an interesting scenario! I can see now why they might be reluctant to settle at this point.

Thanks to all of you who take the time to indulge lurkers like me. Appreciated.

Conxis · 08/05/2025 17:58

vandelier · 08/05/2025 17:48

I suppose I'm just surprised that NHS Fife have not yet thrown in the towel and admitted defeat. If what you all say is the case, then what is the point of carrying on the charade anymore? Do they have something else up their sleeves?

Maybe it's a reluctance to "settle", and maybe there are other issues at play. I have been reading back with interest, and perhaps SP will not settle either. Who knows?

I'm a bit puzzled that's all, if it's such an open and shut issue.

I don’t think NHS Fife will be totally in control of what happens here going forward. I reckon it will be Scot Gov calling the shots. They very much run the NHS in Scotland and policies seem to be set centrally. The legal dept who are advising on this is a central dept for all NHS Scotland.
Theres already been calls, after the SC ruling, in Scot parliament for the health secretary to instruct NHS Fife to settle

Hoardasurass · 09/05/2025 07:42

NeedToChangeName · 08/05/2025 09:56

I'm assuming Sandie Peggie case will settle. Surely NHS can't continue to defend this case?

I'm predicting -
(1) NHS thanks Supreme Court for clarifying this issue that was previously so terribly unclear (ha!)
(2) confidential settlement
(3) bland joint statement that it's been difficult for all involved
(4) Dr Upton will be furious

You don't know nhs fife, they will continue with the case until the bitter end.
After the haldane ruling I contacted them pointing out that their trans inclusion policy was illegal, quoting the ruling and sending a copy of the judgment. They chose not to act upon the judgment and basically called me a big mean transphobe for not wanting a man on my hospital ward, whilst simultaneously claiming that their policy of self-id was legal and wouldn't be charged as the haldane ruling didn't affect them🤦‍♀️
Even now they are still allowing men on the female wards and in the female facilities, claiming that they are still waiting for the NHS Scotland trans policy to come in, it's the same 1 that NHS Fife was already using.
NHS Fife is completely captured

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 09/05/2025 07:47

Hoardasurass · 09/05/2025 07:42

You don't know nhs fife, they will continue with the case until the bitter end.
After the haldane ruling I contacted them pointing out that their trans inclusion policy was illegal, quoting the ruling and sending a copy of the judgment. They chose not to act upon the judgment and basically called me a big mean transphobe for not wanting a man on my hospital ward, whilst simultaneously claiming that their policy of self-id was legal and wouldn't be charged as the haldane ruling didn't affect them🤦‍♀️
Even now they are still allowing men on the female wards and in the female facilities, claiming that they are still waiting for the NHS Scotland trans policy to come in, it's the same 1 that NHS Fife was already using.
NHS Fife is completely captured

The whole of the NHS is completely captured. Our audit has shown that all of Scotland, all London trusts and all Midlands trusts have “single sex” accommodation policies that are actually “single gender” - ie mixed sex by stealth.

Gettingmadderallthetime · 09/05/2025 07:59

The extent to which Dr Upton and other individuals at Fife and the trust itself (and BMA) may be called to account could depend on access to phone records and what these reveal? But the big stuff - whether you can be suspended for not following a policy which is illegal (and always was) is surely won?

Gettingmadderallthetime · 09/05/2025 08:02

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 09/05/2025 07:47

The whole of the NHS is completely captured. Our audit has shown that all of Scotland, all London trusts and all Midlands trusts have “single sex” accommodation policies that are actually “single gender” - ie mixed sex by stealth.

Is it a defence that the trusts were all as bad as Fife? Hoping the work on the BUS audit might be referred to and focus the judgement on sending a clear message to all trusts. What a glorious price of work. Thanks due to the auditors - massively..

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 09/05/2025 08:05

Gettingmadderallthetime · 09/05/2025 08:02

Is it a defence that the trusts were all as bad as Fife? Hoping the work on the BUS audit might be referred to and focus the judgement on sending a clear message to all trusts. What a glorious price of work. Thanks due to the auditors - massively..

I guess it’s a defence in the same way “I was just following orders” is a defence.

And thank you for your kind words. The audit is @KnottyAuty’s baby, but there are a lot of people on here who made it possible. I hope it focuses a few minds as well.

Merrymouse · 09/05/2025 08:19

prh47bridge · 08/05/2025 16:25

Nothing is ever completely certain when dealing with the courts. However, it is very difficult to see a route to NHS Fife winning following the SC judgement. They were obliged to provide single sex changing facilities and failed to do so. Everything stems from that. I may be wrong but I think the best they can hope for is that SP is held to be partly to blame, which would reduce any damages awarded to her, but even that seems unlikely.

Can I cheekily ask a question which is not related to this case, and which you may have answered before?

Am I right in thinking that the EA distinguishes between organisations that provide services to the public and associations, and that associations don't have to justify restricting membership to one sex?

(And this is why a club like Boodle's can exclude women?)

I'm thinking about previous discussions about the WI.

DeanElderberry · 09/05/2025 08:20

As other people said upthread, S P could settle with Fife if the terms were good, the apology comprehensive, the settlement adequate.

Or - she could have done that if Upton's gob had stayed shut. But if the accusation of patient endangerment that Upton dredged up in the middle of the hearing changes that. That was intended to cause serious reputational damage to her, and Fife cannot unspeak the words Upton spoke - they have to be established to be either truth or a deliberate lie. And if a deliberate lie, that adds to the ignorance of biology to make me question Upton's right to practice medicine.

Such an arrogant twonk.

KnottyAuty · 09/05/2025 08:23

Merrymouse · 09/05/2025 08:19

Can I cheekily ask a question which is not related to this case, and which you may have answered before?

Am I right in thinking that the EA distinguishes between organisations that provide services to the public and associations, and that associations don't have to justify restricting membership to one sex?

(And this is why a club like Boodle's can exclude women?)

I'm thinking about previous discussions about the WI.

Just to interject rather than have a repeat - there was a long discussion on this and lots of posts up thread. Probably just after the judgement on the 16th. As it was loooong (and @prh47bridge was already very patient fielding lots of questions) probably best to have a read through all that - then just ask a supplementary?! 😊

SqueakyDinosaur · 09/05/2025 08:27

I do wonder what the narrative is in Dr Upton's head. Is he still the poor, wronged innocent who just wants to get changed? Or might there be a little niggle in the back of his mind suggesting that he hasn't behaved at all well?

I often wonder this about these cases. But then I remember that Rachel McKinnon's doctoral thesis was actually about lying and why it's fine.

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