NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #24

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23

Thanks Knotty. Interesting to see Michael Foran's view that Fife's ongoing position potentially opens it up to other claims. Although, as Arran says, to change things now is tantamount to them admitting they were wrong.

Disingenuous AF: the CEO "Referring to the “significant media attention and public discussion” around <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/o/FfpVh/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/04/nurse-trans-doctor-employment-tribunal-fife/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Ms Peggie’s case, she said that “not all facts or considerations may be fully reflected” in what is being reported."

I mean, the organisation that YOU lead is one of the respondents in an extremely high profile case. It has had every opportunity to lay out relevant facts and considerations. Under oath, on the record, in front of a judge.

Well it is true that maybe “not all facts or considerations may be fully reflected in what is being reported."

Unfortunately she may not be aware just how many people are tuning in to listen for themselves...

Indeed. When access was restricted due to the disruptions, I wrote to the court and explained how my interpretation of watching over the first few days bore absolutely no resemblance to the majority of the media reporting and that was why open justice is important. As we know so many media outlets don't do proper journalism any more and blatantly lie about things like the sex of alleged criminals, so how can we possibly trust them. They have an agenda.

Publicly funded institutions like NHS trusts in particular should be required to have public scrutiny of court cases against them and not allowed to restrict the narrative and hide their actions from the public they serve and who fund them.

Oh dear things really aren't going nhs fife way

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/nhs-fife-could-face-enforcement-34970720

.

I've not kept up with this thread, but posting this to add NHS Scotland best practise guidance:

Health Building Note 00-02
Core elements:
Sanitary spaces

https://www.nss.nhs.scot/media/1975/hbn-00-02-mar-2017.pdf

'3.3 Separate changing facilities are required for
male and female staff.'

"She said the health board recognises its responsibilities under the Equalities Act 2010, saying that the current legal process must conclude before any potential changes to practices can be considered."

Genuinely confused - I don't understand how the Peggie case can have any impact on whether the Health and Safety Regs apply?

I would almost call their attitude to the law a bit... Trumpy?

Isn’t the point that the EHRC are saying that they think Fife aren’t recognising their responsibilities under the EA (as set out by the 2022 EHRC guidance)?!

This while thing about twisting meanings really shakes my confidence in these institutions. Putting a positive spin i
on things is one thing. Complete distortion is quite another

The EHRC letter to NHS Fife included the following paragraph:

"Furthermore, the Workplace (Health, Safety, and Welfare) Regulations 1992 state that changing facilities will not be suitable “unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety”. The Health and Safety Executive has issued an Approved Code of Practice and guidance in relation to these regulations."

Yes the problem being with the weasel words which mean that woman can mean anything at all…. Grr

Headlines coming in thick and fast now - remarkable coverage from a ET?!

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25053752.sandie-peggie-equality-watchdog-s-warning-nhs-fife/

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5213664/equalities-watchdog-sandie-peggie-nhs-fife/

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/human-rights-watchdog-considering-enforcement-against-nhs-fife-over-dr-beth-upton-transgender-case-5061072

I'm very impressed by the Scottish papers' determination to keep this up through the break in proceedings.

Can't help thinking one of the big losers here is going to be the unfortunate Scottish tax-payers.

Elections next year. And they've already seen off Nicola Sturgeon and then Humza Yousaf on the problems of transgender rights/problems. So I think they are gunning for John Swinney too. So odd that none of them want to pull back even slightly on it all

Oh wow the Telegraph are on a roll:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/04/01/snp-admits-it-helped-write-controversial-nhs-trans-guidance/

Will upload an archive link shortly or has anyone got a gift link?

Here you go:

www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/bc626f9116157238

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/nhs-fife-double-down-policy-34970217?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar
The express aren't letting it drop either 😀

Wow reading that telegraph article it's very illuminating.

Swinney really needs to read the room here.

As ScotsGov drafted the guidance wouldn't that make them liable for legal fall out if that guidance is found to both be unlawful and leave the organisations that followed the guidance in the hole for lawsuits arising from said guidance? Much like, imo, Stonewall/Mermaids and the rest of the Gender ideology hydra should be for the propaganda they churned out purporting to be the law. If that's the case then Swinney is in a delicate position and it might explain why on the one hand he can't comment as 'ongoing legal don'tcha know' while on t'other hand Fife has his full backing.

Sorry for all the guidances in the first sentence.

Again, I don't understand which part of the Fife case is considering whether the hospital has a duty to comply with the 1992 regulations.

Is there something I have missed?

Whatever the judgement is, I can't see how it would include the judge saying 'and the 1992 regulations are unenforceable'.

Is the assumption that Fife will appeal and that this will go to a higher court and that part of that will be challenging the validity of the 1992 regulations? That course of action would seem to be both expensive and unpopular.

archive

https://archive.is/IzN2H

Excellent work by the effective second house of MBM there but SNP and other political duplicity never fails to disappoint me.

I don't know whether it's a mistake by the health board or by the journalist, as it's indirect speech, but I'd hope the NHS Fife chief exec would know it's the Equality Act, not the Equalities Act.