NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #24

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23

It's a shame the media is too underresourced, and the NHS too up its own fundament, to do this work themselves.

But thank you to all the pesky women out there getting the job done!

Is it the intention to audit the whole of the UK's Trusts?

I believe so!

Surely, surely, SURELY people should have to pay for this sort of thing???

As with all the cosmetic changes that are currently getting funded on NHS - tracheal shave, hair removal, all the surgeries.

Whereas women who need breast reduction for medical purposes (back pain etc) usually end up having to pay. And women with PCOS usually have to pay for hair removal. Cos . . . women? And not special.

Women needing breast reduction treatment should maybe identify as male homosexuals or non binary. Say they dont want their breast removed totally as they know men will still be attracted to smaller breasts. And women with pcos who want hair removal - non binary feminine person. Then you become one of the most needy ....

DH has just asked me what 'agender' is in response to a work survey that has a question at the end about age/gender/religion etc
I told him to say he identifies as a house and his name is knock knock

House, as in :

'Knock knock!'
'Who's there?'
'House.'
'House who?
'House this for a really poor knock-knock joke?'

Sorry, this is a complete derail. The only French 'knock, knock ' joke I have ever heard:

Frappe, Frappe.
Qui est la?
Losti.
Losti qui?
Oui. Ouvrez la porte s'il vous plait?

You're apologising for a derail? On this thread? Derails 'r' us on here! It's probably going to be 90% derail till the tribunal starts up again😄

Love the French knock knock joke - it's macaronic, it's partly English-ish.
That's what makes it very clever.

The case of Jennifer Melle is appalling. A nurse who referred to a convicted paedophile as a man whilst treating him, and was racially abused by him, has been disciplined by the Epsom & St Helier hospital trust. Apologies if I’ve missed this further up thread.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2025/03/24/why-is-the-nhs-siding-with-a-racist-paedophile/

Helen Joyce has popped into the Critic with a few words

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-men-making-the-news/

It is strange how it's suddenly flipped, the vase has become two faces or they've realised the heron looking down is actually a rabbit looking up.

Excellent. Now let the media do a bit of navel gazing. Where the fuck has it been? When did it become an unpaid agitprop machine?

Thanks, Nauticant, and everyone else driving this forwards.

Well said by Helen, as always. The Guardian, the Indy, and the BBC in particular should hang their heads in shame.

I liked Helen's article, but she's missing one of the reasons why this was under wraps for so long, it wasn't just that the time wasn't right or the story wasn't appealing, the reason why (if you see the Audit thread) it was hidden in word salad and contradictions and 2+2=5 reality denial in policy documents.

Safeguarding.

There has been a concerted push to undermine safeguarding and create loopholes and gender ideology has been a big part of that.

It's not the only case where it's happened - there are other cases where institutions covered up safeguarding failures deliberately - but gender ideology has been a big part of safeguarding failures in recent times. That's WHY it wasn't news. Because there was a concerted effort to distract and hide what was happening.

And women were pilloried and banned for pointing this out. Lisa Muggeridge, LangCleg and many more on here - deleted and banned.

Sonia Appleby was thwarted in her professional attempt to safeguard as a safeguarding lead at GIDS and vilified for trying to do her job and raise legitimate safeguarding concerns.

Even now, even on the sex realism side, too many cases focus on rights and discrimination (under EA 2010) and not the multiple breaches of safeguarding law. Safeguarding is constantly being ignored but for most normal women, for the most vulnerable and poorest (both women and children) a failure of safeguarding is probably the most important problem that arises from GI.

A reminder that Sonia Appleby was not the only whistleblower Dr Lynne Amidon lost her employment tribunal for whistleblowing and safeguarding Concerns at the Tavistock and Portman but is making an appeal. She really needs some additional carrots.

Sandie peggie's case causing more ripples. 🙌🏻

www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/northern-irelands-health-minister-backs-single-sex-spaces-in-hospitals-saying-staff-concerns-must-now-be-addressed-5056598

I am angry and frustrated for you @KnottyAuty . I have noticed an increase in "lockdown children" presenting with speech problems so all resources should be solely focused on THEIR needs not those of a sexual fetishist who can pay for his own therapy.

I work as a support assistant at a primary school (not in England) and attend weekly meetings with two children (separately) with a Speech & Language therapist. It hadn't occurred to me that this woman would also be expected to counsel men who wanted to feminise their voices but here's the thing, she has a rainbow lanyard with a progressive pride flag pin attached. I am desperate to ask her about it but that would not be professional. Neither is wearing the flag to be honest. Imagine me wearing a suffragette lanyard and Let Women Speak badges to work, lol. It will never happen.

Struggling to keep up with these threads so placemarking.

Seems like time is flying for me, and yet no time is passing at all.

My biggest hope is that this case gives more women strength to speak out.

Thanks for this link anyold.

From her CrowdFunding page Dr Lynne Amidon Whistleblowing and Safeguarding Concerns at the Tavistock and Portman

I am a Child and Adolescent Psychotherapist and Team Manager working at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust.

Application for Reconsideration
I have now applied to have the whole of my judgment reconsidered by the employment tribunal.

On 11 February 2025, my legal team received new evidence which is conclusive proof that some of the facts found by the tribunal in paragraph 13 of the judgment cannot possibly be correct. This relates to the tribunal allowing one of the Tavistock’s most important witnesses to rewrite his witness statement mid-trial. This may have far reaching consequences for many parts of the judgment and potentially it may mean that I could win certain aspects of my claim, however, nothing is guaranteed, and I am crossing my fingers at this point.
What it does mean is that my costs application is put on hold for the moment, pending determination of this reconsideration application and my appeal.
I will be able to update you more about the reconsideration following Thursday’s hearing.

Very glad to see a bit of pushback on this here, there's much less variation between trusts here than in England, they tend to all cut and pasted the same policies from the shared Business Services Organisation. It has an extra layer of complication (doesn't everything in NI?) because of the split in opinions down party lines, but as the health minister is unionist and they're generally conservative with a small c, we may see some movement.

This is out of date. The reconsideration was refused on the grounds that it was out of time, it was not in the interests of justice to extend time and there was no reasonable prospect of success.

The original tribunal found that, of the 16 disclosures she claimed were protected, only 4 were actually protected disclosures. However, they found that she had not suffered any detriment on the basis of those disclosures, nor had she suffered racial discrimination or harassment.

Whilst the case does concern Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, it does not appear that any of the alleged protected disclosures relate to gender beliefs. They appear to be disagreements with social workers about how certain cases were being handled, including social workers attempting to suppress a report written by the Complex Assessment Team at Tavistock that was jointly commissioned by the family concerned and social services, apparently because social services didn't like the outcome.

She may be deserving of support but, unless I'm missing something, this case does not make her a standard bearer for GC beliefs, unlike Sandie Peggie.

More from the Telegraph on the Peggie case:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/03/31/trans-row-nhs-trust-refuses-to-change-female-changing-rooms/

https://archive.is/FfpVh

Tbh it would be tricky for them to change tack now as it would be admitting they were wrong and then they would presumably all have to resign so they will string it out for now.