NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

Working on my numbers …. This is the Scottish Census 2022 Question…. Difficult surely for them to claim that they don’t know what sex is when the Scottish Government have defined it in their own data collection?

edited to add - you need to click on the image to see the full text of both questions

You need to be careful if using census data gathered using that question - the ONS has had to admit that the stats for the UK Census are probably inaccurate due to people who don't have English as their first language/who have cognitive difficulties/have difficulties reading or understanding answering it incorrectly.

Re : sex question in the Scottish 2022 census (which was based on self id) -

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2021/08/31/mbm-statement-on-scotlands-census-2022-sex-question-guidance/

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-the-snp-botched-scotlands-census/

Thanks! I had found the problems with the English system.... and thought this was a better question but almost as soon as I posted I realised it could be abused by Self ID... maybe that is why they don't plan to do any more census' in the future.... totally useless data and expensive

And I'll always be proud to be one of those who did this -

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,almost-3000-people-declare-religion-as-believer-in-biology-in-scottish-census

@Waitwhat23 I managed to do it x 5 (the whole household at the time - all adults) plus MiL down the road.

Yes this is the new guidelines of what to ask from a research perspective in Scottish public sector. Someone pointed out on a different thread that it does have its own issues (such as being an open ended response to the trans history aspect and by saying trans and trans history it lumps detransitioners together and also the person could answer the sex question wrong too therefore it's still meaningless) but at least the word sex is back in again. And not gender identity.

I always thought it was odd that DU talked about a "hate incident". As I have been wrestling with numbers I found this:

https://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/2020-11/TUC%20Transphobic%20booklet%20%284%29.pdf

“Definition of transphobic hate crime.... Any incident/crime which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by hostility or prejudice towards a person because of their trans identity or perceived trans identity by the victim or any other person.”

"It is important that hate incidents are reported to the police, whether it’s a one-off or part of a pattern of repeat offending.

"We have seen a big increase in the number of transphobic hate crimes recorded by police forces in England, Scotland and Wales. This is a rise that cannot be explained solely by an increase in confidence trans people have in reporting hate crime incidents to the police.

I imagine that if the term "man" or "male" in relation to a TW is now considered to be transphobic, that could certainly account for a huge upswing in recorded incidents!?

By that measure, surely TW are more at risk of a hate incident in female CRs than literally anywhere else?

By that measure, surely TW are more at risk of a hate incident in female CRs than literally anywhere else?

Oh yes, sadly it happens a lot. Ask poor Beth Upton, she'll tell you. (Cough, cough. Maybe I need medical treatment.)

But wouldn't seeking out female changing rooms count as contributory negligence? Or perhaps not in the world where TiMs have to be pandered to at all costs.

Well, he did say in his evidence that he'd considered reporting Sandie to the Police, for mistergendering him. If that was over the last incident, where she explained reality to him, on the final time he refused to give her space in the changing room, or before, when she'd always called him she/her/Beth is open to question.

I'm willing to bet that it was before.

To be a hate crime there has to be a crimevto start with - the hate part is on top.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about this. Some people seem to think that being "hateful" ie saying things they don't like, is a hate crime. But it isn't, unless an actual crime has been committed.

In Scotland the relevant crime would be "stirring up hatred" but JK Rowling was famously not charged with this when she called trans women "men" when the act was introduced last year.

In England, there is the current case of Linzi Smith, who received an apology from Northumbria police for investigating her for a hypothetical hate crime ie there was no actual victim so no crime.

This TUC material makes it look like you just need to feel offended to be able to call it a hate crime and it's simply not the case.

I wonder if Dr Upton and Co all got caught out on this point too.

mistergendering

Brilliant typo.

Sorry if this is old news but I've not been able to find a numbers based assessment of the vulnerability claims which would inform a Changing Room risk assessment. And without numbers it's just a finger in the air isn't it?

Here is my attempt - please check my logic...

The english figures aren't much use, so using the Scottish Census data from 2022 I can get total population and trans ID population figures sliced by age band. So I can calculate % trans ID for different age bands (over 16's only / much higher rates of gender fluidity in the 16-30 range). Then if I wildly assume these % translate to the rest of the UK, I can then use the % trans by age on UK wide figures to estimate the total "trans" population of the UK of 77,500. Omitting the non-binary folks whose needs are less clear regarding changing rooms etc, my rough ready reckoning comes to an estimate of about 18.5k trans women and 18.5k trans men.

For changing rooms it's actually quite difficult to know what offences might be relevant and the hate crime stats aren't much help. There were 4780 incidents of transgender related hate crime in 2023-24 but this includes physical assault, stalking, criminal damage, arson etc which aren't really relevant to changing rooms. However on the CPS website I found a note saying that a 2013 survey indicated that 1 in 8 victims (of trans and homophobic crime) had experienced unwanted sexual contact. So if we take that rate, a very very rough estimate might be that there are around 600 sexually motivated offences/hate incidents in the UK each year - which equates to about 1 in 60 trans people (or 1 in 120 if combined with non binary people).

Hate incident figures are not gathered for crimes against women and girls. But the ONS reports on sexual assaults. The Crime Survey for England and Wales estimated that 2.3% of adults (3.3% women and 1.2% men) aged 16 years and over were victims of sexual assault (including attempts) in the year ending March 2022. This equates to an estimated 798,000 are women who are raped or sexually assaulted every year - that's 2186 per day. And for a total population of 24.5 million women over 16 in the UK, that's a rate of about 1 in 30 women.

I'm a bit surprised how clear those numbers come out - it seems that women are 2 to 4 times more likely to be victims of sexual violence than trans and non binary people.

Who is the vulnerable group here exactly?

Think that was the conclusion of the authors of that Critic article I sent you upthread - trans people were the least vulnerable group, well after religious groups; that was including everything from hate crimes up to murder, and (I believe) also including suicide.

And good on them. I hadn't thought about the second chamber issue until the GRR, and Westminster stepped in to save us from insanity. Although I am opposed in principle to the House of Lords, in practice I am very much in favour of them and the work they do, and the GRR bill made me realise the Scottish Government also need someone to rein them in.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · Today 21:29

mistergendering

Brilliant typo.

That's no typo!

Absolutely - that made me want to try to isolate the changing room problem since the EHCR have said there should be risk assessments - so those will need some figures...

After my number crunching I'm just going to go with repeating my headline figure: females are 4 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than trans folks

Stick that in your risk assessment!

Agree entirely. The lack of a second chamber and the lack of any kind of oversight mechanism to curb the worst excesses of an institutionally captured Government led me (like many others) to write to Alistair Jack to ask him to invoke the Section 35. If you'd told me 10 years ago that I would be appealing to Westminister to limit the actions of the Scottish Government, I would have laughed in your face.

A second chamber, whichever form that takes, is desperately needed.

I completely agree about the lack of a second chamber and I too have a - grudging! - respect for the work of the HoL, if not for the concept…

It’s not just the GRA Bill though, sadly, before that we had the named person scheme, and the deposit scheme … they just don’t do the due diligence on proposed legislation. Unfortunately it all gets mixed up with party politics/the indy debate and it’s so hard to have a proper discussion about anything without it descending into tribalism and mudslinging.

And of course the other issue is: who’d even go into politics nowadays? It’s become the domain of egoists with the hides of rhinos because frankly who could or would want to cope with the abuse that you - and in many of our cases, our children - would get… Not to mention my inability to talk in glib sound bites. I’d just stand there, jaw dropping, at the level of misinformation and manipulation you hear… even in official debate in the chamber, let alone campaigning.

I have to agree. Tuning into some of the clips linked here I was really surprised by how amateur and poor quality the debate was. Curious given that the whole argument of the SNP was how superior they would be to Westminster?!

mistergendering

Absolutely love it 🙌

Not under humza yousef's hate crime bill, it's a hate crime in Scotland if someone perceives it as 1 and it doesn't even have to be a reasonable perception either.
We are all waiting on the 1st case to see a crt room as the Scottish hate crime bill won't stand as its incompatible with both the rule of law (no reasonability test) and human rights laws

Thats for hate incidents, rather than hate crimes. The latter doesn't have to be reported to the police if you don't want to. Instead you can tell a sex shop or - if I remember this correctly, and I rather hope I don't because it really does sound like a hallucination - a mushroom farm.