NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

This scheme that is partly paying for NHS Fife's capitulation at the shrine of gender, does anyone know anything about it? What is it? Is it captured too? If it's staffed by hard-nosed bean counters they won't be happy to see money thrown again and again...and again defending the stupid. We have speculated that gender medicine, particularly in the states, might come to the end of its rope when the money going out in lawsuits exceeded that coming in. Perhaps that could happen here? According to the Courier article this scheme is subscribed to by all hospital trusts and LAs. Will their subs be climbing because of cases like this? Either to keep the scheme solvent or to mitigate against risk. Shouldn't the 'wokest', Stonewalliest organisations pay more?

I agree. I wonder if Fifers are particularly outraged because it feels like money taken from their local services although it’s from the central legal scheme. And they have substantial financial problems already. They were rescued by Scotgov money last year (there’s a special word for that in Scotland that I don’t recall) but there’s absolutely no more salvage money in the future.

Health authorities dont subscribe equal amounts to the scheme, so when they lose they will need to pay more in future.

People dont like to see the NHS losing money on a legal action they should not be defending, they want to see their money spent on treating people.

So important.

I’ve decided I’ll not be renewing my subscription for the Guardian. They claim to be independent and for free speech but having listened to Dr Upton and then read their bland coverage I think they’ve done a disservice. If they won’t stand by me then I any support them. Desperate stuff really

Have never subscribed, but was a daily reader. Basically stopped reading it a few years back - interestingly (ha!), around about the time I became aware of how badly they were reporting on women’s rights issues. I had a bit of a Sall Grover (of Giggle v Tickle) moment - she said something like, if you are prepared to lie and say a man is a woman, what else are you prepared to lie about?

I have also gone completely off the BBC, same reason, with added drag queens.

Despite not having read either for some time, however, it did gall me to see the Daily Mail report the tribunal accurately while the Guardian and BBC just seemed to kind of…make things up. Tribalism and the things we use to mark our tribe (newspapers, how we vote, etc, etc) is clearly very hard to break out of.

I've just listened to the interview between Helen webberley and Andrew Neil on his Times Radio Sunday show (2nd March last segment).
It is an astonishing showcase for dangerous (n profitable) trans ideology.

Words cannot describe the false, arrogant, self-serving, distorted drivel she spews.

Interesting!
I self identify as autistic as I don’t think I’d meet diagnostic thresholds these days but maybe once apon a time. But my kids are neurodivergent so it’s all in the mix here 😊

The trans community behaviours scream out autism to me. The black and white thinking and special interests. The fact that many within that group will have IQ and ability to see the rules/connections and how to work the system to meet their needs - with a blindness or lack of internet on how it affects others.

Most people are busy or just want to get away from the nastiness of it all. But as you say, once it starts impacting on their lives or friends or NHS or their taxpayer funds when all budgets are so tight….

Maybe following the money is the way to go? In my industry everyone is friendly until it’s time to pay for things - it sharpens the mind in a way that BeKind which is easy, feel good and free, does not

I also really struggled with that. Makes me feel a bit queasy having rely on the press from the right. The left have deserted us. But why are we surprised they’ve always done women down - be socialist first and help the men and then we will help the women…. Err no sorry that’s a no from me. But it’s not a yes to the right either. Rubbish that the Women’s Equality Party collapsed - I did support them for a time too. Maybe I’ll spoil my ballot paper? Unless Wes Street is leader and then there’s maybe a chance?

The thing is that when you force people into lying then humans protect themselves. The NHS staff is mostly women - but who will encourage their kids into healthcare careers after seeing how women are treated? I’m telling both my two not to have kids - why on earth should they serve a country who trampled on them? It’s all self defeating but won’t be discovered for years… self inflicted wounds are so stupid

I will be honest and say I hadn’t come across the Women’s Equality Party until they splashed across the papers when they collapsed, at which point I investigated. And (despite enjoying QI), from reading excerpts from her book and various other things she’s written, I can only conclude that Sandi T is possibly the most woman-hating lesbian I have come across. Another disappointment.

I will be honest and say I hadn’t come across the Women’s Equality Party until they splashed across the papers when they collapsed

I think that's most people's experience of them.

Sadly, I think Stephen Whittle and James Morton eclipse Toksvig in those stakes.

Oh gosh this is bleak. No wonder people want to shut their ears and look away?! It’s so tempting. This whole story is making me jittery. I need to channel the energy into something useful so I’m going to start by trying to write an EQIA… Anyone want to help sense check it?

I had a look last night to see if there was anything in there that would be transparently relevant.

The employment section of the website leads to the list of legally qualified staff working there, whose job it is to support trusts when dealing with an employment tribunal situation.

https://www.nss.nhs.scot/browse/legal/employment

Looking at the website, I think it's team B who will be involved in SP's case.

It looks like if help is required for EQIAs, NSS are also a source of assistance if required

https://www.nss.nhs.scot/how-nss-works/equality-impact-assessments/

If it's this team that's involved/running the defence case, then it would be interesting to know how much preparation they did & at what point they understood the policy communicated by IB on DU's access to female CR was determined without an EQIA?

It's obviously a large wide ranging part of the legal system in place for NHS trusts to rely upon, across multiple areas but beyond that, I've not found anything that's specific to this case via meeting minutes or anything that adds details relevant to the thread. I'd assume this also falls under the remit of the Scottish Health Minister.

I think the argument that the costs of defending the tribunal isn't being paid by the trust itself, when clearly this is a large part of the overall structure that's funded as part of the NHS, isn't a strong one. It's still coming out of the budget, funded by taxpayers, and is still relevant to the questions over how this has all been managed. NHS Fife's reticence in being clear over the cost to the public purse is a poor attempt to obfuscate IMO.

I know we'll never know but I would love to have seen the preparations by this team leading up to the tribunal & what on earth they've included in their evaluation of the prospects of success & also whether it's this team who has been obstructing disclosure. So much in the handling of this brings into question what their aim is, why are they defending what increasingly looks like indefensible given the Work Place Regs etc.

Sooooo many questions...

Yes - and if they're actually lawyers I assume they've had a fair few "Oh shit" moments....

Yep - and The Courier have their teeth into it - with all the local contacts that come with 100 years of journalism on that local patch! I remember Jeremy Paxman talking about when he mistakenly sat in the Courier’s seat in the Westminster press gallery as a young hack - think he got short shrift 🤣 They’re drip feeding it out but the direction of travel at the moment is clearly following the money. But cheeky to pretend today that NHS Fife isn’t paying today so they can do another “exclusive” that tomorrow about how NHS Scotland is…. I don’t feel sorry for them but more than few folk are under pressure there I’ll bet?!

When you take a step back & see what's been exposed by this case, it makes you appreciate all the more the top quality KC that NC is. Her careful dissection of the evidence (not all of it either, and having had very little time to dig deep into what they got last minute, still with holes in it) was just an exercise in professional excellence. That's something I really appreciate.

I've no doubt she's expensive but she's worth every penny she earns.

She's not a KC, I don't think - JR is (and so's NC's husband who wrote the very funny parody of the cross-examination).

Oh can you share a link to the parody please.

The issue is Stonewall we're been given money by governments they came up with crackpot ideas, government and institutions followed them, without actually engaging brain. Wtf!

The Yankees have a term for when the same kind of enmeshment happens between the Govt and the defence industry: "military industrial complex", in which the Govt gives the defence companies money for weapons and the defence companies use some of that money to lobby for policy that will lead to more weapons purchases.

Unsurprisingly, just as Watergate lent the -gate suffiz to other scandals, MIC has lent the Industrial Complex suffix to other sectors' enmeshments with the Govt. The terms DEI Industrial Complex and Diversity Industrial Complex have emerged, again from the US, to describe the situation where the Govt funds organisations like Stonewall, who in turn lobby it for policies that will mean more funding. Interestingly, the term is used by Left and Right alike, with the Right characterising it as a waste of money that promotes identity politics and the Left noting that an industry founded on criticising inequality has a perverse incentive to maintain the inequality it claims to combat and demonstrably does so.

I did a quick check before adding that & must've took it from X instead of her own bio at her chambers. If she's not a KC, she should be. She's excellent at what she does.

I spotted this on X - it might well have been covered at some point across the threads - but seems relevant to the chat as it is now.

https://x.com/boswelltoday/status/1897977386836152804?s=46

"When Personnel Today, the HR trade mag read across the UK, starts discussing LGB rights and the failures of EDI, you know the conversation is shifting. A big moment."

Link to the article:

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/edi-lgb-rights-trans-ideology-lgbt-opinion-gender-critical-belief/

And some helpful guidance from that article, especially for the likes if NHS Fife:

"Following activist-driven policies without legal scrutiny puts businesses at risk of costly tribunals and reputational damage. To avoid workplace strife and legal conflicts, employers could take the following steps:

•   <strong>*Vet external advisers carefully.</strong> If a consultant can&rsquo;t explain how their advice complies with the country&rsquo;s law, they shouldn&rsquo;t be advising your business. Too many employers have outsourced EDI strategies to lobby groups with an ideological agenda rather than experts who understand equality law.
  

•   <strong>*Encourage diversity of thought.</strong> A workplace that punishes employees for holding lawful, differing views is not inclusive; it is oppressive. True diversity means allowing discussion and debate, not enforcing ideological conformity.
  

•   <strong>*Don&rsquo;t have a stance on everything.</strong> Identity politics and ideological statements are inherently divisive. It often pays for an employer to be apolitical unless it is central to the organisation&rsquo;s mission.
  

•   <strong>*Consult the right people.</strong> Policies affecting sex-based rights should involve input from women and LGB employees, not just activist lobby groups. Ignoring the perspectives of those directly affected leads to resentment, conflict and legal challenges.
  

•   <strong>*Be responsible for your own culture.</strong>Advisers advise; CEOs decide. Business leaders should have the confidence to shape the values and culture of their organisations rather than outsourcing their morality to outsiders.
  

"

Sage advice for anyone who has uncritically outsourced their EDI policy/training to activist groups.

You’re correct. NC is not a KC but her DH is a KC (Tom Pitt-Payne).

A pertinent article in the Critic

https://thecritic.co.uk/turning-the-tide-on-gender/

If, Goddess willing, Sandie Peggie's won her case and we're all looking in the rear view mirror at the wreckage of GI perhaps we can have a blue plaque put up by that changing room.

https://technicallyhuman.substack.com/p/a-courtroom-drama - it's very good indeed.

@GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder - blimey, that's a bit sensible, isn't it! Good to see something like that in an HR journal at last.