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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

1000 replies

nauticant · 02/03/2025 12:52

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

OP posts:
Thread gallery
60
GCEpileptic · 06/03/2025 18:47

@DeanElderberryyes the first word that came to mind for me was “penitent” funnily enough.

impossibletoday · 06/03/2025 19:48

Screenshot

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23
impossibletoday · 06/03/2025 19:49

Awaiting image...

The employer this time is the Met police

Tallisker · 06/03/2025 19:50

This reply has been deleted

Post deleted at OP's request.

Tallisker · 06/03/2025 20:23

Sorry, that link is crap. It's Brenda from Bristol

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 06/03/2025 20:29
general election uk GIF by BBC

here you go!

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 06/03/2025 21:53

DeanElderberry · 06/03/2025 18:34

I have in the past compared young people caught up in the transitioning epidemic with those who, decades ago, went into religious life as nuns or brothers when they were unsuited to it. The result was a lot of unhappy people, male teachers who became notorious for corporal punishment, women with a high rate on mental breakdown. Leaving the whole sex abuse thing out of it.

But their 'foundation, the training they were put through from their mid teens was all about humility, about ignoring reality in favour of obedience, The classic catch 22 was an order to plant cabbage plants upside down. If they planted them right way up they were abused for disobedience. If they obeyed they were abused for being so foolish and causing the plants to die.

One feature of convent life(I think also in the monasteries) was the 'public accusation of faults' where the errant nun had to lie face down on the floor in front of all her peers and the director of novices before admitting doing something wrong. Of course, if a young woman declined to do that, that was the cause of worse accusations.

All in the name of 'love', intended to break the individual down so they could be rebuilt as a element of the community.

Terribly damaging, not done since the end of the 60s, looked back on as a massive mistake with dreadful consequences.

But here is a secular health service doing the exact same thing, forcing people to lie and comply to serve the orders of a new religious hierarchy. It is mad. And at least in the convents and monasteries the people being abused had (sort of, they were very young) chosen to go in.

ignoring reality in favour of obedience

The word "cult" is springing to mind here.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 06/03/2025 22:57

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2025 12:18

Exactly. Humility is shitty. No one should be told to be "humble".

Not even men?

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 06/03/2025 23:29

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 06/03/2025 22:57

Not even men?

Yeah, OK...

Tallisker · 06/03/2025 23:52

@DontTellMeWhat2Do thank you!

334bu · 07/03/2025 06:48

Thanks for link to article.

KnottyAuty · 07/03/2025 06:58

334bu · 07/03/2025 06:48

Thanks for link to article.

It’s so weird this. No one seems to be interested in the idea of a bunch of extremists who have bullied our public institutions, media and politicians and taken millions (?) in public money for training and policy advice? Yet £250k on this Tribunal is what’s upset folk?

baffled

SinnerBoy · 07/03/2025 07:09

I think we can be concerned with more than one aspect of Peggie's case. Firstly, the way she's been ganged up on, vilified and bullied and secondly, at the outrageous costs the hospital has incurred by deciding to defend the independent.

On a brighter note, they called Betheodore him all the way through.

KnottyAuty · 07/03/2025 07:14

And possibly the original info from The Courier

archive.is/nWUDH

Needspaceforlego · 07/03/2025 07:15

KnottyAuty · 07/03/2025 06:58

It’s so weird this. No one seems to be interested in the idea of a bunch of extremists who have bullied our public institutions, media and politicians and taken millions (?) in public money for training and policy advice? Yet £250k on this Tribunal is what’s upset folk?

baffled

That's a very good point. And other than try to defend themselves what else were NHS Fife ment to do?

The issue is Stonewall we're been given money by governments they came up with crackpot ideas, government and institutions followed them, without actually engaging brain. Wtf!

borntobequiet · 07/03/2025 07:16

KnottyAuty · 07/03/2025 06:58

It’s so weird this. No one seems to be interested in the idea of a bunch of extremists who have bullied our public institutions, media and politicians and taken millions (?) in public money for training and policy advice? Yet £250k on this Tribunal is what’s upset folk?

baffled

Whataboutery.

Chrysanthemum5 · 07/03/2025 07:30

Thanks for the links I think the Courier has done a great job on this and has shown the value of local journalism. I subscribed to the paper as a way to show appreciation for their work

Sothatsalrighthen · 07/03/2025 07:32

With regard to leadership at General medical Council (GMC), this thread (with linked article) very informative:

x.com/starknakedbrief/status/1897535096724308127?s=46&t=BRUxTjZ34agAPkVo-fi3zA

Chrysanthemum5 · 07/03/2025 07:34

@KnottyAuty I think the money on training, Stonewall etc is hard to quantify and hard to explain to people in general. Stonewall relies on its previous achievements and most of the public don't know about its recent moves. When you talk about training it doesn't feel relevant.

But the NHS matters to everyone and most people know a nurse or a doctor in the NHS. So articles about the NHS wasting money on this tribunal are something people can relate to. The articles yesterday about NHS staff being told they had to accept a man with a beard as a woman and gaslight patients into also believing it - everyone can imagine themselves in that hospital bed and being lied to

I hope this is the start of the bigger questions about the money being wasted on this lie

SternlyMatthews · 07/03/2025 07:52

KnottyAuty · 07/03/2025 06:58

It’s so weird this. No one seems to be interested in the idea of a bunch of extremists who have bullied our public institutions, media and politicians and taken millions (?) in public money for training and policy advice? Yet £250k on this Tribunal is what’s upset folk?

baffled

Leaving no stone unturned, & following all the leads is effective, & helps build the bigger picture.

SinnerBoy · 07/03/2025 07:55

Grr! Sodding autocarrot!

Indefensible, not independent!

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 07/03/2025 08:09

Chrysanthemum5 · 07/03/2025 07:30

Thanks for the links I think the Courier has done a great job on this and has shown the value of local journalism. I subscribed to the paper as a way to show appreciation for their work

That’s a great idea, to subscribe.

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 07/03/2025 08:28

@KnottyAuty I Agee with you and it is deeply frustrating. My observation from a long life in this imperfect world is that many - indeed the majority of - people are more able, or are only able, to relate to a concrete example than an abstract one. That’s why Isla Bryson and Sandie and Beth have made the headlines. The News Agenda. Humans love storytelling, characters, emotions… real scenarios. I don’t think that way and wish it wasn’t necessary but it’s just the way people seem to be.

As an aside: I gather from your username you may be autistic. This could be of relevance to your frustration - maybe mine too. I’ve often pondered if I might have a different kind of mind but never pursued it. My understanding is that it is often allistic people who need the kind of concrete scenarios above before they grasp the full implications of something. Many autistic people have an excellent intuitive ability to imagine - even in the abstract - the way that poorly designed systems might unfold in ways that might cause unintended consequences. This, coupled with their strong sense of justice and fairness, gives rise to the urgently felt need to point out these inconsistencies and the potential for harm. Unfortunately, many people simply cannot think on that abstract level, and/or have no interest in doing so if it does not directly affect - read benefit ! - them. Or if they do see it, but choose not to speak out because they value fitting in with their peers and/or the structure in which they find themselves more highly than the desire to point out possible issues.

I‘m no expert, and I’m certainly not saying that only autistic people recognise these issues, I’m just musing on whether it could contribute to the confusion about why so many don’t feel the need to shout from the rooftops about this in the way that you do!

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