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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

1000 replies

nauticant · 02/03/2025 12:52

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2025 12:03

'Cultural humility' is the newish name for 'cultural competence'.

It's far more loaded and ideological than "cultural competence". Why did it need a new name?

guinnessguzzler · 06/03/2025 12:06

I feel like most of us are still catching up with 'culture competence' to be honest! 😂

NoBinturongsHereMate · 06/03/2025 12:08

The reasoning is that 'competence' implies you know everything about somebody else's culture; 'humility' suggests you know you're not an expert but are willing to learn.

I agree it's a daft term. Something like 'awareness' would be better.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2025 12:18

Exactly. Humility is shitty. No one should be told to be "humble".

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2025 12:19

It smacks of awful American DEI like "toxic whiteness".

OhBuggerandArse · 06/03/2025 12:49

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2025 12:03

'Cultural humility' is the newish name for 'cultural competence'.

It's far more loaded and ideological than "cultural competence". Why did it need a new name?

It reminds me of the lexical shift from 'solidarity' to 'allyship'. Solidarity doesn't seem to imply giving up any claim to your own views and analysis in order to support someone, whereas allyship has (to me, slightly sinister) undertones of 'support me in exactly the way I ask you to and agree exactly with the way I view things or it doesn't count'. Cultural competence requires two-way understanding, engagement, tact, ability to work across difference - cultural humility sounds to me like 'shut up while I lecture you and give up all your rights to have your views considered, understood or valued'.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2025 13:02

cultural humility sounds to me like 'shut up while I lecture you and give up all your rights to have your views considered, understood or valued'.

That's exactly how I imagine it.

Timetodownsize · 06/03/2025 13:03

I have finally caught up although I must confess to not starting at the very beginning so I need to go back to the very early threads.

I wanted to get to this point to say I'm delurking and to thank all those who've been fighting this nonsense for a long time. I think I was peaked by the GRR in Scottish parliament and an excellent article on Wings over Scotland about the background to the TRAs supporting this.

OhBuggerandArse · 06/03/2025 13:10

Well that's a silly, complacent, piece, isn't it?

Hoardasurass · 06/03/2025 13:24

@OhBuggerandArse yep just another man telling us silly women to shut up and play nice

CriticalCondition · 06/03/2025 13:40

OhBuggerandArse · 06/03/2025 13:10

Well that's a silly, complacent, piece, isn't it?

Yup. He pretends to be brave in finally voicing an opinion but is still too scared to say anything of substance so dismisses it all with a both sides, grifters gonna grift, private cubicles for all stance. Hey guys, this is SO boring, there are more important things to talk about.

Cowardly, sexist man about 5 years behind anyone else who has engaged with this.

SqueakyDinosaur · 06/03/2025 13:47

Though I admire Justin Webb greatly, I don't think he's wholly right any more about the difficulty of getting published as a GC writer. Off the top of my head, we've had Kathleen Stock's Material Girls, Helen Joyce's Trans, Victoria Smith's Hags, Abigail Shrier's Irreversible Damage, (tangentially - she's circumspect) Caroline Criado-Perez's Invisible Women...

ThatsNotMyTeen · 06/03/2025 13:47

Hope Kate Searle is shitting herself

SqueakyDinosaur · 06/03/2025 13:50

From that piece: 'Until now, I’ve avoided writing anything substantial to do with the "gender wars."'

Mate, I don't think you need to worry. You still haven't written anything remotely substantial, let alone with discernible thought behind it.

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 06/03/2025 13:50

ThatsNotMyTeen · 06/03/2025 13:47

Hope Kate Searle is shitting herself

I'm more interested in Isla Bumba being a witness as I was a DEI advisor for a long time (transitioned into something else) and met a lot of Isla's!

SternlyMatthews · 06/03/2025 14:05

'a plague on both their houses' plus an appeal to worse problems (relative privation). Poor, although I quite liked this sentence:

"For a case that First Minister John Swinney was adamant that nobody could talk about at FMQs, every man, women, non-binary person, and their dog could not shut up about it."

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 06/03/2025 15:08

Behold! A man has come to give his manly opinion!

  1. You can't fix healthcare if you don't acknowledge sex.
  2. The cost of implementing private changing rooms isn't zero.
  3. There's so much more to sex-based rights than changing rooms and toilets.
If I wanted a sanctimonious prick, I'd go shag my ex-bf.
borntobequiet · 06/03/2025 15:44

OhBuggerandArse · 06/03/2025 13:10

Well that's a silly, complacent, piece, isn't it?

Totally. He should have kept the lid on his pen.

borntobequiet · 06/03/2025 15:48

SqueakyDinosaur · 06/03/2025 13:47

Though I admire Justin Webb greatly, I don't think he's wholly right any more about the difficulty of getting published as a GC writer. Off the top of my head, we've had Kathleen Stock's Material Girls, Helen Joyce's Trans, Victoria Smith's Hags, Abigail Shrier's Irreversible Damage, (tangentially - she's circumspect) Caroline Criado-Perez's Invisible Women...

He may have been thinking about the difficulty that (I think) Hannah Barnes had in getting published. But I might be wrong.
There were other books taken up by small publishers when the big ones rejected them, as well.

Arran2024 · 06/03/2025 16:57

These books are a drop in the ocean compared with the number of trans positive books

lcakethereforeIam · 06/03/2025 17:15

There's more to getting published than books. I want to see the Father Ted musical, I'd like some balance in the Guardian.

DeanElderberry · 06/03/2025 18:34

I have in the past compared young people caught up in the transitioning epidemic with those who, decades ago, went into religious life as nuns or brothers when they were unsuited to it. The result was a lot of unhappy people, male teachers who became notorious for corporal punishment, women with a high rate on mental breakdown. Leaving the whole sex abuse thing out of it.

But their 'foundation, the training they were put through from their mid teens was all about humility, about ignoring reality in favour of obedience, The classic catch 22 was an order to plant cabbage plants upside down. If they planted them right way up they were abused for disobedience. If they obeyed they were abused for being so foolish and causing the plants to die.

One feature of convent life(I think also in the monasteries) was the 'public accusation of faults' where the errant nun had to lie face down on the floor in front of all her peers and the director of novices before admitting doing something wrong. Of course, if a young woman declined to do that, that was the cause of worse accusations.

All in the name of 'love', intended to break the individual down so they could be rebuilt as a element of the community.

Terribly damaging, not done since the end of the 60s, looked back on as a massive mistake with dreadful consequences.

But here is a secular health service doing the exact same thing, forcing people to lie and comply to serve the orders of a new religious hierarchy. It is mad. And at least in the convents and monasteries the people being abused had (sort of, they were very young) chosen to go in.

GCEpileptic · 06/03/2025 18:46

Well, let’s be honest we all know the only people being expecting to show “humility” are women. Whilst being kind of course.

women, know your place (under men’s fucking boots while they stamp on us 1984 style.

Well fuck being humble and kind. sorry, am in a fucking foul mood tonight.

PS thank you @prh47bridge(and others) who replied to my earlier Q re female care.

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