NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

Why am I unsurprised that cultural humiliation module is packed with lies and misrepresentation?

NHS staff were being subjected to “thought control” by managers who were embedding contested ideologies about sex and gender across the Scottish public sector.

It’s interesting that the spotlight is being turned on the specific wording and being described like this. Is that usual in news coverage?

In the light of a recent statement by the EHRC [Equality and Human Rights Commission], we have reviewed some of these resources including the Cultural Humility resource.”

Sounds promising that the policies brought in by the bavk door, are now scuttling off the same way?

people can decide for themselves “whether they identify as disabled”

Having spent most of last night filling in DS’ PIP form, I am can tell you that self ID is unfortunately not a thing with The Dept of Work & Pensions. Odd that these inclusive policies arent inclusive across all government departments isn’t it?

Looks like Naomi and co have formally requested that Kate Searle be added to the respondents.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14466015/Single-sex-row-nurse-accuses-transgender-doctors-boss-harassing-her.html

This case has been a very good reminder to be veeeeerrrrryyyyyy careful what to put in e mails.

Excellent. I hope the tribunal judge accepts this. Many roads seem to lead to Dr Seale who may have denied Sandie procedural fairness while egging on Dr Upton.

Cultural humility

What an unsettling phrase in this context.

Unsettling - creepy, controlling, nasty, invasive double-speak. Thank goodness they have removed it, but how did it get agreed in the first place?

The cultural humility e-learning module and resource pack have been designed to support the development of cultural humility values, attitudes and behaviours

This sends a shiver down my spine. WTAF.

Sex Services Trans and Gender issues/ www.steenandco.co.uk/knowledge_base/Single%20Sex%20Services%20Trans%20and%20Gender%20issues

Spaces in URLs have to be replaced with %20.

Archive version: https://archive.is/6OYTv

Was it this thread or another where someone recounted the ‘gaslight granny or you’ll keep falling the module’ story from NHS training?

I just want to give a big shout out to Sandie's solicitor, Margaret Gribbon, and her team.

On here we talk a lot about the brilliance of Naomi, and she deserves it. But the work that Margaret is doing is absolutely top drawer.

The level of detail and thoroughness is so impressive, but also the way she has worked with the press to keep her client's story at the top of the headlines is a masterpiece.

So to Margaret.

It's interesting to see the Times has disabled comments on this article. Why, I wonder.

If I read the date correctly it says 22 February. Don’t papers disable comments after a day or so?

PS I assume you referred to cultural humility item. Apologies if you were referring to something else.

Shout-out to Justin Webb (I think!) on the Today Programme just now (right before the end), in the middle of a piece on global censorship, saying (I paraphrase) 'shouldn't we take a hard look at ourselves? As a gender-critical woman, trying to get a book published here is pretty much impossible.' He has previous evidence of getting it, but I loved this because it was unprompted, and drew the connections out for an audience who might not have been thinking of the relevance for women's experiences here. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0028jtv

Yes. Not only excellent legal work but must have superb media relationships and an ability to know how to work with them.

She has a very impressive-looking background: www.scottishlegal.com/articles/lawyer-of-the-month-margaret-gribbon

We know from experience that when this subject is raised trans supporting people say ‘what about section 9(1) of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (‘GRA’). That section says that a person is entitled to be treated as the acquired gender ‘for all purposes’. This was qualified in Forstater in the EAT to ‘all legal purposes’ but even so section 9(1) is subject to provision made in the GRA or any other legislation including section 9(3) of the GRA and as we have said about the Equality Act exemptions. In short – the Equality Act expressly allows those in possession of a GRC to be treated for some purposes as their birth and not acquired sex. This reflects the the law in this country which is that sex can’t be changed.

I hadn't clocked that aspect of Forstater before. 😍

Haldane, too, said 'all purposes except for the exceptions'. Oddly, TRAs aren't keen on mentioning the second bit.

'Cultural humility' is the newish name for 'cultural competence'. Like EDI, there's usually a small amount of good sense wrapped up in a whole lot of brainwashed some-animals-are-more-equal-than-others agenda.

Yes, the Forstater judgement in her appeal said that. It was drawing from earlier decisions in the House of Lords and the Court of Appeal that made similar statements.

It says posted 5th March 11.18 pm @RethinkingLife
I don't think the Times disables commenting after a while. I still get the occasional alert that someone commented on something I said and I haven't posted there since they changed to real names.

The Times turn comments off if its related to a court case.
Often, once they are on, they stay on, with tracking, you get reply & like notifications.

a person is entitled to be treated as the acquired gender ‘for all [legal] purposes’.......subject to [any other] provision made in ..... any [other] legislation ........ In short – the [law] expressly allows those in possession of a GRC to be treated for some purposes as their birth and not acquired sex.

Many thanks to @KnottyAuty and @selffellatingouroborosofhate for providing the useful link and quote about this, which I've condensed even further, above. I'm embarrassed to admit I had been struggling with how the GRA and EA could be logically consistent with each other, but this explains it.

There's a problem though, isn't there? The GRA renders the medical history and GRC status of a trans person (and therefore, of any person) private personal information, and instructs officials to keep it confidential. That's an obstacle to treating those in possession of a GRC ... for some purposes as their birth and not acquired sex.

An official with explicit investigatory powers (say, the criminal justice system or a sporting regulator) won't have a problem, but everyone else does. What are the options?

Birth Certificate? Nope.

Genital inspections? Ewww. Nope.

Buccal swabs? To use a changing room? Really?

Shouting 'he's a man'? Not going to go well. Transphobia! 😱

The EHRC gives the example of a rape survivors' group which can legally exclude transwomen in order to spare members the trauma of encountering a biological male. How will they do it in practice?

And in the unlikely event of a perfectly passing legally female AMAB flying under the radar in such a group, how will the women feel if they find out?

Concealing your sex just shouldn't be allowed.

Thanks!

At 2:5413 for anyone who is short of time - section on World Book Day and discussion of the CIA Book Club leads on to a general discussion about the digital world's proliferation of information drowning out knowledge. Justin Webb getting an excellent side comment about how the UK / "free world" is not doing terribly well on open debate "just try and get a book published on Gender Critical matters if you are a female journalist" (or similar).

Good for Justin, as ever.

This is it - it’s the privacy aspect that stops people enquiring that causes the problem.

The cultural humility e-learning module and resource pack have been designed to support the development of cultural humility values, attitudes and behaviours

Straight Outta Beijing, there.