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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #23

1000 replies

nauticant · 02/03/2025 12:52

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22

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60
DontTellMeWhat2Do · 05/03/2025 15:15

July is soooooo far away. stamps feet with the unfairness of it

GCEpileptic · 05/03/2025 15:35

I’m sorry I am really behind and just caught up (also bit inarticulate atm) so it was a few threads ago I think where I slightly derailed the thread onto toilets (but it was very interesting and thank you so much *@Keeptoiletssafe * for the amazing work you do. i am emailing my MP (again!!)

of course, the obvious safest solution to people like me is to have a carer of the same sex with them in changing rooms and toilet areas,it’s a sensitive subject in our house as i know objectively I require carers (and yes, dwe’re getting back on thread topic here!) but i don’t fucking want them not just the whole loss of independence thing etc - but because I DO NOT WANT carers like the gaslighting DU. a male HCP who has said on record that despite the fact someone has specifically requested a female HCP he will override that, STILL turn up and just wait to see if you challenge him, wtf. if I was faced in that position and unable to communicate my wishes , I’d report him for sexual assault. Interesting for @prh47bridge views on that apologies if already discussed.

the very fact you need a carer shows how vulnerable you are. Especially to men like this. I don’t want to say female carers only, have it agreed to and then have someone rock up who is clearly biologically a man (and despite what the panel said I believe it’s objectively clear he is a man). Women aren’t here to gratify male egos at any time, especially at our most vulnerable. Hopefully this tribunal will back us up.

(Irony is that my DH is a trained carer! I want him to be my DH in my life, not my carer though. things like helping mobilise and dressings management etc ok, intimate care not. He is a decent man though who in work would have never ever attend a woman who had requested female care. Aand he is my staunch advocate in hospital on this subject. I can bet DU would have backed the fuck down in the face of a man like DH (think Pete the plumber but much thinner and taller with muscles and more tattoos) saying “no men”. it’s fucking infuriating but at least latest developments about him and his “she was a danger to patients but I didn’t report as it wasn’t about ME” or “she was a danger to patients but I just left the reporting until I could use it to make it about ME” or “I’m totally lying she wasn’t a danger to patients but I said she was as I’m trying desperately to hang her on now that because clearly it isn’t enough that it’s just about ME” seem to show he has effectively torpedoed his own career, yet more irony. Oops.

edited to add I really REALLY hope his phone is examined.

NotAGentleReminder · 05/03/2025 15:53

NoBinturongsHereMate · 05/03/2025 10:25

Mushrooms are the only sexually reproducing organism that don't follow the 'only 2 sexes' rule.

Coincidence?

(Yes, of course it is - but the whole situation is so ridiculous that it might as well be a dsft conspiracy theory.)

Apparently mushrooms, and fungi in general, have been 'on trend' for the last couple of years. And I've been unfortunate enough to stumble upon several bonkers articles about the 'queerness' of fungi. So maybe that's why a mushroom farm is a 'safe space'???

NotAGentleReminder · 05/03/2025 15:57

PrettyDamnCosmic · 05/03/2025 14:28

However it also states:
Sexual orientation: lesbian; gay; bisexual; homosexual, transgender, heterosexual
The Equality Act 2010 calls them transexuals but why is transgender lumped in with sexual orientation?

Stonewall adding the 'T' to 'LGBT'? 'LGBT' is used as a blanket term now, to mean gay when it suits and 'trans' when it suits.

FarriersGirl · 05/03/2025 16:01

CarefulN0w · 05/03/2025 14:12

www.uhbristol.nhs.uk/files/nhs-ubht/UHBristol%20EIAguidance%20June09V3.pdf

@KnottyAuty - this one is for Bristol, I guess it might also be possible to look for one specific to each area.

Love the question, have you identified a high negative impact on any group? (One assumes women aren't an important enough group to qualify).

@KnottyAuty I have had a look for you but this Bristol example as Careful says is shows some of the problems. I was involved [many moons ago] with developing an early Equalities IA template. It predated the Equalities Act and had more in common with an audit tool but was very comprehensive. I will keep looking for you.

ThePeppyMoose · 05/03/2025 16:12

The level of delusion is insane. Utterly insane.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1j42qnl/anyone_else_notice_our_media_went_real_quiet_on/

NoBinturongsHereMate · 05/03/2025 16:17

No grasp on reality whatsoever.

FarriersGirl · 05/03/2025 16:23

@KnottyAuty
This example of an EqIA attached from the UK Research and Innovation is better although aimed at gaining funding, the principles are all covered. It has some quite useful guidance, and is a completed example intended I think to show the level of detail that you could reasonably expect.
https://www.ukri.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/nerc-110221-Funding-Opp-PreparingForFutureCleanAir-EIA.pdf

https://www.ukri.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/nerc-110221-Funding-Opp-PreparingForFutureCleanAir-EIA.pdf

prh47bridge · 05/03/2025 16:30

@GCEpileptic I suspect the police wouldn't want to get involved. However, if you need intimate care, ask for a female carer and get a male who identifies as female, my view is that, unless care is needed urgently and there are no female carers available, it is assault and possibly sexual assault depending on what they do.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 05/03/2025 16:40

Not sure how relevant this is but this was the 1st (proper) assessment done by women in Scotland on trans rights/school guidance via Women & Girls in Scotland

https://maggiemellon.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Childrens-Rights-Impact-Assessment-by-Women-and-Girls-in-Scotland.pdf

Their website seems to have gone & this is hosted on child social care worker Maggie Mellon's website. It's aimed at children & particularly the impact of the LGBT Youth Scotland written, Scotgov school guidance on trans students, so other legislation is accounted for. But, if there are women out there who have the skills, knowledge, legal background & have the time to do it, there's a whole host of policies around that could benefit from similar scrutiny. It was women doing the job of paid government employees in assessing the government issued guidance, in their own (unpaid) time who pulled this together.

It shouldn't be needed, but it was effective - albeit we're not out of the mess yet.

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 05/03/2025 17:32

NotAGentleReminder · 05/03/2025 15:53

Apparently mushrooms, and fungi in general, have been 'on trend' for the last couple of years. And I've been unfortunate enough to stumble upon several bonkers articles about the 'queerness' of fungi. So maybe that's why a mushroom farm is a 'safe space'???

I think to be fair it’s because Eastern Europeans tend to work there and the perception that they might be the targets of racism.

NotAGentleReminder · 05/03/2025 17:32

NotAGentleReminder · 05/03/2025 15:53

Apparently mushrooms, and fungi in general, have been 'on trend' for the last couple of years. And I've been unfortunate enough to stumble upon several bonkers articles about the 'queerness' of fungi. So maybe that's why a mushroom farm is a 'safe space'???

Veering off-topic from the case, but re the mushroom farm hate crime reporting centre madness, here's an article to educate us about fungi and the 'queer community'. Sorry in advance.
https://thisisgendered.org/entry/mushroom/

Mushroom – THIS IS GENDERED

Mushrooms, fungi, mycelium; this group of not-quite-vegetable, not-quite-animal holds a special place in group thought. Some people are disgusted by fungus (mycophobia, fear of mushrooms), others are fascinated, and others yet give them no thought at a...

https://thisisgendered.org/entry/mushroom/

NotAGentleReminder · 05/03/2025 17:35

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 05/03/2025 17:32

I think to be fair it’s because Eastern Europeans tend to work there and the perception that they might be the targets of racism.

Ah, thanks for explaining. This would be a much more sensible reason.

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 05/03/2025 17:35

GCEpileptic · 05/03/2025 15:35

I’m sorry I am really behind and just caught up (also bit inarticulate atm) so it was a few threads ago I think where I slightly derailed the thread onto toilets (but it was very interesting and thank you so much *@Keeptoiletssafe * for the amazing work you do. i am emailing my MP (again!!)

of course, the obvious safest solution to people like me is to have a carer of the same sex with them in changing rooms and toilet areas,it’s a sensitive subject in our house as i know objectively I require carers (and yes, dwe’re getting back on thread topic here!) but i don’t fucking want them not just the whole loss of independence thing etc - but because I DO NOT WANT carers like the gaslighting DU. a male HCP who has said on record that despite the fact someone has specifically requested a female HCP he will override that, STILL turn up and just wait to see if you challenge him, wtf. if I was faced in that position and unable to communicate my wishes , I’d report him for sexual assault. Interesting for @prh47bridge views on that apologies if already discussed.

the very fact you need a carer shows how vulnerable you are. Especially to men like this. I don’t want to say female carers only, have it agreed to and then have someone rock up who is clearly biologically a man (and despite what the panel said I believe it’s objectively clear he is a man). Women aren’t here to gratify male egos at any time, especially at our most vulnerable. Hopefully this tribunal will back us up.

(Irony is that my DH is a trained carer! I want him to be my DH in my life, not my carer though. things like helping mobilise and dressings management etc ok, intimate care not. He is a decent man though who in work would have never ever attend a woman who had requested female care. Aand he is my staunch advocate in hospital on this subject. I can bet DU would have backed the fuck down in the face of a man like DH (think Pete the plumber but much thinner and taller with muscles and more tattoos) saying “no men”. it’s fucking infuriating but at least latest developments about him and his “she was a danger to patients but I didn’t report as it wasn’t about ME” or “she was a danger to patients but I just left the reporting until I could use it to make it about ME” or “I’m totally lying she wasn’t a danger to patients but I said she was as I’m trying desperately to hang her on now that because clearly it isn’t enough that it’s just about ME” seem to show he has effectively torpedoed his own career, yet more irony. Oops.

edited to add I really REALLY hope his phone is examined.

Edited

Yes - my rage is partly because of the patent injustice and unfairness of the situation for women like yourself, @GCEpileptic

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 05/03/2025 17:50

NotAGentleReminder · 05/03/2025 17:35

Ah, thanks for explaining. This would be a much more sensible reason.

The whole thing is bonkers, mind you though. Utterly bizarre and wrong. If it’s to be a crime the police should be responsible - asking randoms to get involved is nuts and throws up a multitude of issues - data protection, confidentiality, conflict of interest, tampering or loss of evidence and all sorts… the police are trained for this!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/03/2025 18:10

The affinity between the queer community and mushrooms is beautiful, poetic, and enriching to both science and society. As Dr Patricia Kaishan puts it, “mycology is queer insofar as it is marginal, subordinate, contested, ridiculed, but more critically, mycology is queer insofar as it is disruptive, collective, transformative, revolutionary.” I recently attended a talk titled ‘Are Mushrooms Trans?’ where the speakers Kit Heyam, Jesse, and Susy explored the links between mushrooms and the trans community.

Right.

duc748 · 05/03/2025 18:21

TBF, I've talked bollocks on mushrooms before! 🍄

NotAGentleReminder · 05/03/2025 18:32

I'll stop derailing after this but just seen that Manchester Pride funded this with a community grant. Insanity.
https://www.mycomanchester.com/event-details/are-mushrooms-trans-talk
ETA that I really don't know what to say to 'decomposition focused youth project'

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 05/03/2025 18:36

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/03/2025 18:10

The affinity between the queer community and mushrooms is beautiful, poetic, and enriching to both science and society. As Dr Patricia Kaishan puts it, “mycology is queer insofar as it is marginal, subordinate, contested, ridiculed, but more critically, mycology is queer insofar as it is disruptive, collective, transformative, revolutionary.” I recently attended a talk titled ‘Are Mushrooms Trans?’ where the speakers Kit Heyam, Jesse, and Susy explored the links between mushrooms and the trans community.

Right.

If mushrooms are trans, presumably that means that toadstools are trans too. And it's not always easy to tell the difference between the edible ones and the poisonous ones. Not all the poisonous ones look like fly agaric. I do love a stretched metaphor.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/03/2025 18:55

Look at the team photo, particularly "Jesse".

NotAGentleReminder · 05/03/2025 19:13

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/03/2025 18:55

Look at the team photo, particularly "Jesse".

When I see these young adults who appear brainwashed, especially the young women who appear to have taken testosterone, and think of my trans-identifying daughter who has left our home, cut me off and not told me where she is, I feel very sad and afraid for her.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/03/2025 19:17

Not sure whether I should say it on the thread, but Jesse appears to be someone we talked about a lot on FWR about 6/7 years ago.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 05/03/2025 19:17

NotAGentleReminder · 05/03/2025 19:13

When I see these young adults who appear brainwashed, especially the young women who appear to have taken testosterone, and think of my trans-identifying daughter who has left our home, cut me off and not told me where she is, I feel very sad and afraid for her.

So deeply sorry you are going through this. Sending hugs, inadequate though they are.

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 05/03/2025 19:19

@NotAGentleReminder also: so sorry to hear of this. May she find her way in this crazy world, hopefully back to you.

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