NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

That's a good observation, I think, @guinnessguzzler .

I didn't see the video, but I still think he looks male from the photos. And unmistakably male.

But a feminine enough male for people to think that there's something to it. When you see Roxy Tickle, you just think nah, perv.

When you see Upton, although he still looks male, you might think that there's something to gender dysphoria that warrants more accommodation.

If there was such a thing as being born in the wrong body, you might think that Upton is further along the line than Tickle, for instance.

It's wrong, on every level, but from my experience, perception is very important. Hence pronouns.

Fortunately, perception changes as soon as they speak.

Actually... bins in the men's toilets and raising awareness of menstruation in men's toilets does rather imply they expect not to have single-sex toilets.

The British Toilet Association was campaigning for bins in men’s toilets for those who needed to dispose of sanitary products due to prostate problems etc but I believe those bins are designed differently.

The situation is not symmetrical. Apart from continence/stoma products, a proper impact assessment might show that men didn't need single sex facilities. That should have no bearing on the fact that women do.

We need to get rid of 'Stonewall law' and enforce the actual law.

We need to have a reality based result in the For Women Scotland Vs the Scottish Government case.

We need to reach a place where more and more people feel that they can say 'no' to ideological demands.

Here you go: Boys need bins campaign.
Needs a bigger opening design to what women have.
How telling that a policy writer thinks the positive of bins is in gender neutral toilets is about raising awareness of menstruation rather than the positive for men with the most common cancer.

To be honest, I think the majority of the public have always been WTAF. For the most part it's government, organisations and the media who have been behind trans ideology, not the public. Now the chickens are coming home to roost and those organisations are in the difficult position of having to justify their past decisions while not looking completely incompetent.

I am constantly amazed how no one considers health and safety anymore. I try and remind myself that the people writing these policies will be copy and pasting them in good faith thinking due diligence has been completed and not realising there’s an agenda behind it.

I wonder if any of those colleagues who say DU is caring and sensitive saw the arrogance and smugness of him in his testimony, the mangling of language, the attempts to control Naomi Cunningham's approach, and the sheer batshittery of his insistence that he is female. He didn't come across AT ALL as caring and sensitive. He came across as an insufferable cocky arsehole who enjoys winding people up, 'queering' basic words, and having everyone pandering to him. Shudder.

I agree, @Tallisker. His smirking insolence and entitlement shine out for me every time I've seen him.

The epistemic class is unfamiliar with the notion that any ‘right-thinking’ person disagrees with them. Far less that they’d ever need to express, never mind explain, the matter beyond thought terminating cliches and mantras.

Thanks v much @GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder for that very helpful (but depressing ) answer to my question.

It didn't seem to occur to him that whatever about changing his appearance, he has failed dismally to shake off his aura of male superiority, entitlement and argumentativeness.

He's been through a boyhood and a male adolescence and early adulthood, and he's doing a good job of demonstrating what a strong and lasting effect that has on behaviour and mannerisms.

That works against him in two ways: firstly, it may have been one of the reasons - along with physical traits - why some colleagues and patients independently identified him as trans; secondly, it's hard to square his sneery attitude to NC at the tribunal with the weeping shaking delicate flower who had to be helped to his car because, he claims, of his scary interaction with The Incredible Hulk King Kong The Terminator A unit of Royal Marine Commandos ... a nurse.

I wonder if any of those colleagues who say DU is caring and sensitive saw the arrogance and smugness of him in his testimony, the mangling of language, the attempts to control Naomi Cunningham's approach, and the sheer batshittery of his insistence that he is female. He didn't come across AT ALL as caring and sensitive. He came across as an insufferable cocky arsehole who enjoys winding people up, 'queering' basic words, and having everyone pandering to him. Shudder.

As someone who watched him being examined and cross examined over most of the several days he was up, this.

It doesn’t matter if people pass or not.

People should not be frightened of litigation if they tell people to get out of single sex spaces. If mistakes are made then apologies can be made.

Because people are frightened:
It’s free for all for everyone.
Those who shouldn’t have to, self exclude.
To try and mitigate it, the design of these spaces changes, to mixed sex areas with small cubicles of complete privacy. This is dangerous particularly for the most vulnerable with certain disabilities and women and children. And those of certain religions. They start to self exclude.

So we are left with an environment most suitable for healthy men.

The optics are always a factor. I don't think it was any sort of coincidence or random happenstance that the first openly M to F at the Olympics was a weight lifter. Much easier to slip a man among women in a minority sport when they are by the very nature of their sport are muscular than among the the more high profile, more typically female bodies of say athletics or the tiny gymnasts. Set the precedent with the acceptable faces or in the less obvious places and the door is wedged open for the others to follow.

Hunter Schaefer playing the 'final girl' in a horror film. I just read Scaefer as male, just from the scene at the beginning of the trailer

I'd never heard of HS until this confected passport hoo-ha, so I looked it all up online. The first hit was a video of lots of catwalks in shows for some high-end fashion brand that no doubt pays many $$$$.

Schafer was just stomping along, incredibly gracelessly, and incredibly male-ly (if there’s such a word) in every single shot, and in increasingly ludicrous get-ups. They’d all been edited together and the cumulative effect was unintentionally hilarious. Schafer can barely walk in heels at all, and with those enormous (male) feet it’s hardly surprising. The women also on the catwalk were all obviously women because men and women walk differently.

Yet underneath this YouTube compilation were fawning comments praising Hunter’s 'otherworldly' beauty and 'very special' walk which was so iconic. Someone dared to say it was 'ugly' and got shouted down.

This ties into the “transmaxxing” thing where incels decide to turn their failure to be a decent person as a male decide to have a crack at being female instead.

Like this Being a man was too much hard work, so I became a woman: Inside the transmaxxing trend mol.im/a/14433829 via https://dailym.ai/android

I see Fife NHS have suspended a midwife over her pro life views expressed privately. I thought conscientious objectors were allowed?

It’s in the times but I don’t have a share token. I found this, though adfinternational.org/en-gb/news/nhs-fife-suspend-midwifery-student-over-expression-of-pro-life-beliefs

Archive version. https://archive.ph/5D9Nu

Share token on the midwife story here. It sounds like she was cleared but her uni are still advising her to be careful on social media.

I couldn't disagree with her views more strongly, but she is entitled to hold them and discuss them in private groups.

Student midwife suspended from training ‘over pro-life beliefs’

www.thetimes.com/article/7b274a79-b398-4702-a236-205da68202a8?shareToken=c7b86d4f8e8045e1d9946179a3321e23

It’s sad when professionals report a fellow professional for having opposing views.
The student midwife is entitled to her beliefs even if others disagree with her, provided she doesn’t put her opinions onto a patient; women don’t need this.
I feel sure she’d be able to opt out of termination care. It might be more difficult on a gynae ward.

I think Napier was the uni that taught midwifery students how to cathetise penises because men can have babies.