NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

I see John Swinney's become a grandfather. He seemed surprisingly confident on TwiX that the new-born he was cradling was a boy. Bit presumptuous of him, surely?

My adult daughter has a learning disability. When she was about 14 she joined our LA's inclusivity team - this was an attempt to get local services to make information suitable for people like her. She attended conferences and spoke to hundreds of LA and NHS staff. They drew up guidelines for presenting info clearly. She did it up til lockdown and direction of travel was always about making info clearer, more accessible.

Then suddenly that didn't matter any more. Suddenly "inclusive" meant trans inclusive, not disability inclusive or low English literary skills inclusive. They just expected people like my daughter to cope.

I have had countless arguments on X with tras about this. They don't care. They think it is up to me to teach my daughter these new terms. Stuff like "if you have a cervix" means absolutely nothing to her.

Wonder how his DIL feels about his views.

I did consider asking him that on his Twitter announcement but decided that a new baby is a thing of joy and not something for politics

He know full well that transwomen are men and I wonder how his wife and daughter feel about his political manipulation on this issue?

Clearly, Swinney knows a nebulous dog whistle when he sees it.

My first long term boyfriend (fifty years ago) was way “prettier” than DU, long dark blonde curls, beautiful blue eyes, lovely smile, kind and gentle. But in the 1970s no one would have thought him other than unmistakably male.

To me there's that 'uncanny valley' look to him which no amount of make up can disguise. When you're looking at a man who has gone to some lengths to try and disguise the fact he's male, I've yet to see a man who has been able to disguise his male features so successfully that no one can tell.

He's not who I would find attractive, either as his pre-transition persona or as he tries to look like a woman. I'm meh over that so wouldn't comment on his appearance as being attractive or unattractive. 🤷🏻‍♀️

The best I can say is he's odd looking. And by that I mean, there's something off about the picture presented & id immediately think he's a man based on that instinctive take just looking at him. I'd know he's a man if I saw him in person.

I've a friend who had the same feeling about a man who lives nearby who she sees often going to/from a train station & all the things women instinctively clock - gait when walking, long stride in walking , broad shoulders, size of feet/hands - are a give away. You don't even have to see a face to know it's a man you're looking at. There's no amount of surgery that can erase the things that women know make someone male.

I know I have that gut instinct because it took me by surprise in a crowded area in town when I was walking to a shop. I picked up something in my peripheral vision that made me look twice. And what I saw was a man in female clothes & make up a few feet away coming towards me. It's happened a few times, more frequently now because of the increased numbers in men larping as women. That's what we mean when we say we can tell. It's instinctive & it's subconscious. It's a basic survival instinct that cannot be 're-educated' out of our brains.

I know we aren’t supposed to comment but every time I see that picture of DU with his wife, I want to give her a hug. She looks so sad.

Back in the 80s I had a summer job in a hotel in Switzerland and Ladyboys of Bangkok came to play the local casino and we all went to see the show.

I was astonished by how well they passed. But British men are generally nothing like the ladyboys, though I suspect they think that they are.

But even the ladyboys can't walk like a woman. As Shakira says "hips don't lie"!!

I would be interested to know if the guidance she influenced and to which she contributed is still publicly available on the organisations’ websites. Do you suspect that it’s been memory holed?

He sounds like a real Björn Andrésen type. Pic included for those who don't recognise the name.

Grumpy - I agree with you about the 'Uncanny Valley' feeling. Interestingly, I never got/get that feeling about androgenous men who are just androgenous men.

Great letter. Depending on what they come back with, if it helps, legal feminist published a great summary of the law on this
www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2025/02/26/something-for-everyone/

I'm not sure how I feel about the Times article. Some people will just say whatever they think a person wants to hear to avoid making waves-- so the 20 people who agreed with Sandie could have also gone along with Upton and said they had no problem.

If they aren't willing to tell a 3rd party, do they really count?

Also, when did they tell her? If it was before the suspension, could the respondants use those conversations as evidence of bullying?

I hope it's just that people have reached out or sent cards anonymously afterwards.

There is a post on X with a link to the Courier (Scottish newspaper) article which says the information about 20 staff members saying the same as Sandie Peggie was in a letter from her solicitor. Gives it a bit more credibility perhaps.

archive.is/q1Yv6

Thanks @ATowerOfGiraffes I spoke to a lawyer friend to ensure I had the correct regulations etc. it was easy and makes me wonder which lawyers the people who write these policies talk to? Because the law seems very clear

I’ve worked in the public and the private sector and people just don’t get the lawyers involved early enough. They only call us to sort out the mess after the fact - they just don’t see the need for BAU stuff. It’s frustrating.

I have spent time in Thailand and I agree that facial features in young Asian men are more delicate and potentially feminine than a typical European male. However that is as far as it goes.

I have had a number of comms with our local council regarding this issue in relation to schools guidelines, and it is very clear that the staff involved with Equalities job titles are very junior, and their background is nothing to do with law. To them, equalities is about being kind, and doing the right thing as advised by lobbyists. They seemed genuinely baffled when I suggested that they might be in breach of the law. As far as they were concerned the guidance had been written by the lobbyists and it wasn’t the Council’s job to check anything in it. They had been told by their bosses to use that guidance and that was that. Their only role was to promote it and physically organise a launch event and rollout via emails etc. More like a postbox.

Agreed. You only have to look at the employment issues board on here to see employers who clearly haven't taken legal advice or, if they have, haven't listened to it. There was the employer who withdrew a job offer after the candidate told them they were pregnant, women who have been told that any maternity appointments would be taken out of their holiday allowance, many cases of failing to conduct a risk assessment for pregnant employees, making unilateral changes to the employment contract (in one case an employee was threatened with the sack unless they accepted a demotion and a 50% pay cut after telling their employer they were pregnant) and so on.

Back in the day, I remember having an argument with an employer who, faced with an employee handing in her notice, was convinced that there would be no legal problems with them offering her a large pay rise in writing to persuade her to stay but with no intention of actually paying the higher salary. In that case, the business owner ignored all legal advice because he was certain he was right. The courts did not agree with him.

There are some good employers out there, but far too many think they know the law better than they do. And even good employers sometimes end up employing managers who get them in trouble. I remember one good employer with a reputation for looking after its staff where they nearly ended up in serious trouble when a manager refused to give an employee time off for jury service.

Ladyboys of Bangkok is likely to employ the most "passing" males in Thailand. It's a juggernaut of a show - not quite cirque du soleil levels but it would probably be the pinnacle of being trans to be in it. I think it gives British men unrealistic expectations of how well they could pass themselves. It's body shape as well as facial features.

I expect it is long gone. Btw this is a really good explanation of why clear language matters https://can-sg.org/2023/02/23/open-letter-to-nhs-chiefs-the-importance-of-the-word-woman/

They could well have spoken to SP's lawyer but just refused to be a witness or contribute evidence to the case. It'll differ between each person but often when you're gathering evidence, you get intel which you can't rely on but which can give you more confidence in your position & claims - in this case, that SP isn't alone in her position & stating that isn't misleading. They just can't necessarily back that with signed statements & people willing to testify to help the case.

This can happen a lot in litigation - you get details of something someone said or heard & you try to narrow it down to identify the person & approach them to see if they're willing to give a statement. Some people will speak but only verbally & you can't really rely on that as evidence.

My take, which could still be wrong & you could be right in saying it's not a strong claim, is that the solicitor stating this has something more than rumour or hearsay, only it's either not necessary to the case to push for them to be a witness, or the person/ has/have said they won't give evidence in court.

Looking at the fact IB is the DEI Lead, is involved in work on EQIAs as part of her role & also that there is no EQIA in support of her advice to SP's manager about DU being entitled to use the female CR, I'd say that those 20 other people who either felt uncomfortable or objected to DU being given permission to use the female CR aren't needed to challenge IB, or her manager, on what steps they took to assess the impact of allowing a male doctor who claims to be a woman to use the CR, on female staff. They have nothing. I'm fairly confident of that fact because these policies aren't implemented because they've actually researched the impact & sought women's views on this stuff. It's all imposed without any dissent being permitted. With the threat of disciplinary measures should anyone speak up.

Again, this is all my guesswork/speculation & you could be right that it's a meaningless claim or not back up strongly. My view is, it doesn't matter & it's not something NHS Fife have anything they can rely upon to counter in any way.

It's not much use to say that some other staff members agreed with SP, without any proof. Having learnt to trust NC - she always gets there, doesn't she? - I'm guessing that she has something concrete to back up the claim.

The pro-DrU 'unsolicited testimonials' are anonymous, so not exactly watertight either, but I hope there's at least the same level of 'proof' about the staff-members who support SP.

I'm feeling increasingly sorry for the staff at the hospital, who just want to go to work and do a good job and come home again, and didn't ask to have this mushrooming controversy landed on them, thanks to DrU.

My broadband is intermittent at the moment so I'm starting the continuation thread early, just in case I can't start it later on:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23

I'll add my usual request that people continue to post on this thread until it's full before moving over to the new one. Thanks!

Thanks @nauticant