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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/02/2025 14:11

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

OP posts:
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11
RethinkingLife · 01/03/2025 10:22

NoBinturongsHereMate · 01/03/2025 10:18

I've not checked back, but from what I remember the evidence given to the tribunal was '3 trans staff' - but not confirmation of male/female/other.

True. Although the Praetorian Guard that accompanied DU to the tribunal building had at least one member who was even taller than DU and would be a visual candidate for TW status. We don’t know if that person was an ally/colleague.

Chrysanthemum5 · 01/03/2025 10:31

@NoBinturongsHereMate that is true I'd forgotten they may be trans identified women which probably fits with the quotes about being kind and how supportive Upton is

TheCourseOfTheRiverChanged · 01/03/2025 10:45

Harking back to earlier discussion of how pretty Upton is, I actually think his attractiveness is part of the perfect storm.
Just this morning an article I was reading had a photo of Roxanne Tickle on it and I had a momentary sick feeling in the pit of my stomach of "Am I just being mean?" He is very unattractive and I think that heightens people's (particularly women's) wariness about bullying or just general nastiness.
But Upton is articulate, successful, attractive, he has a respected career, stable family - there is a shine to him that I think stops more uninformed - or easily guilted - onlookers from going straight to "Oh you're just being mean girls, why can't you be more inclusive?"

FlowchartRequired · 01/03/2025 11:05

There was a video posted on here a while back (sorry I can't find it, maybe someone knows the one I am referring to and has it to hand?) that was made by a 'based' transwoman who was warning that attractive, young transwomen are used by the TRAs to gain sympathy from women and to not fall for it.

Datun · 01/03/2025 11:05

Chrysanthemum5 · 01/03/2025 10:31

@NoBinturongsHereMate that is true I'd forgotten they may be trans identified women which probably fits with the quotes about being kind and how supportive Upton is

Yes, I'd more likely believe it's a a transactivist who thinks that saying someone is caring and sensitive is any kind of reason for a bloke to be in the women's changing room.

a) what's that got to do with the price of eggs? and

b) by his own admission, Upton claims not to care about women's consent when he's examining them.

Not to mention trying to get a woman fired for her lack of consent in her own changing room.

it's the usual TRA logic of framing that as caring and sensitive.

FranticFrankie · 01/03/2025 11:06

Im afraid I don’t see DU as pretty! The overriding impression that I get is smugness. By the bucket load.
And those anonymous members of A&E staff waxing lyrical about DU; don’t hide behind a cloak of anonymity. If you believe, come out and name yourselves. Spectacularly missing the point that it goes not matter how ‘nice’ DU is. He’s not a woman, legal or otherwise and women are entitled to receive care from women.

Sill on the subject of HR/DEI policies, I emailed our HR 3!! times to point out they’d listed ‘gender’ instead of ‘sex ‘ in the 9 protected characteristics in the policies.
1 reply only: to say that the person who submitted that had left!!! And they’d look into it.
Don’t know if it’s changed- don’t work there now

FranticFrankie · 01/03/2025 11:08

FlowchartRequired · 01/03/2025 11:05

There was a video posted on here a while back (sorry I can't find it, maybe someone knows the one I am referring to and has it to hand?) that was made by a 'based' transwoman who was warning that attractive, young transwomen are used by the TRAs to gain sympathy from women and to not fall for it.

Edited

I think it seems to work sometimes @FlowchartRequired

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 01/03/2025 11:10

The overriding impression that I get is smugness. By the bucket load.

Same here, he's smugness personified.

Datun · 01/03/2025 11:10

TheCourseOfTheRiverChanged · 01/03/2025 10:45

Harking back to earlier discussion of how pretty Upton is, I actually think his attractiveness is part of the perfect storm.
Just this morning an article I was reading had a photo of Roxanne Tickle on it and I had a momentary sick feeling in the pit of my stomach of "Am I just being mean?" He is very unattractive and I think that heightens people's (particularly women's) wariness about bullying or just general nastiness.
But Upton is articulate, successful, attractive, he has a respected career, stable family - there is a shine to him that I think stops more uninformed - or easily guilted - onlookers from going straight to "Oh you're just being mean girls, why can't you be more inclusive?"

I agree looks can alter perception.

It takes a lot of telling people that if you get this you might get that for them to realise that the common denominator is that they are male, not that they're pretty.

There's no doubt that pretty people are viewed more favourably, though.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 01/03/2025 11:10

"Having some gender-neutral facilities as well as the single sex facilities might be a solution, but only if trans individuals are ordered to use the gender-neutral facilities. The likes of Upton will, as we know, say that this is transphobic and refuse to use them, which makes it pointless."

This is a key issue. Orgs need to be clear in terms of permitted use, with any breach deemed harassment. That's about the only thing i can think of that could work. Someone who claims to be trans, in whatever guise that might be, and states they're not comfortable using facilities designed for the sex they're born as. The alternative is the gender neutral/unisex additional facilities which are made available instead. Being clear that single sex facilities are for those who are either male or female & are comfortable using those facilities (because they know they're single sex & therefore afforded the privacy/dignity etc. they require), with the alternative gender neutral/unisex/mixed sex facilities available for those not comfortable in their own sexed facilities or who have no issue using mixed sex facilities - all those 'allies' who say they're not threatened or uncomfortable using mixed sex facilities can also use them - that should be as much as orgs can do in terms of providing access to facilities to meet the needs of those who have to change/use the toilet etc. but who don't want to use the single sex facilities. Expecting the org, and by extension its staff/customers (or in the NHS case, patients) to be validation props to their own detriment, because male 'inclusion' in single sex facilities negates those facilities as single sex the minute you let men in, should never have been the base line in terms of policy. But Scotgov funded activists have created this mess that orgs will have to extract themselves from. And they will have to, eventually. Because it's not going to go away.

FlowchartRequired · 01/03/2025 11:11

Yes, people need to understand that if you let the Blaire Whites into female single-sex spaces, you also let in the Roxy Tickles and the Dolatowskis.

The only sensible line is 'no males'.

BonfireLady · 01/03/2025 11:19

TheCourseOfTheRiverChanged · 01/03/2025 10:45

Harking back to earlier discussion of how pretty Upton is, I actually think his attractiveness is part of the perfect storm.
Just this morning an article I was reading had a photo of Roxanne Tickle on it and I had a momentary sick feeling in the pit of my stomach of "Am I just being mean?" He is very unattractive and I think that heightens people's (particularly women's) wariness about bullying or just general nastiness.
But Upton is articulate, successful, attractive, he has a respected career, stable family - there is a shine to him that I think stops more uninformed - or easily guilted - onlookers from going straight to "Oh you're just being mean girls, why can't you be more inclusive?"

This question of attractiveness definitely plays a part in the public discourse, I agree. I'm on the fence as to whether Dr Upton has an attractive face or not when "living as a woman", but for some people Dr Upton may "pass" and therefore be afforded a Be Kind privilege associated with this. There was enough demonstration of arrogance in the testimony that Dr Upton gave about being accepted by everyone as a woman.... "I've never been spoken to like this in my life" etc.

Here's another clear cut case of the arrogance and lack of self-awareness that can come with this issue. On being refused a passport with an F on it against the sex category, Hunter Schaefer said:

Schafer added: "I just feel like it's important to share that it's not just talk - that this is real and it's happening and no-one - no matter their circumstance, no matter how wealthy or white or pretty or whatever - is excluded."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg4klq45ngvo.amp

This behaviour really is right out of the Veruca Salt playbook. It's not quite "I'll scream and scream until I'm sick", but it's the same level of entitlement. In Hunter's case, it's basically "I'm white - and I'm too rich and pretty for this to be happening to me."

FFS. It's not exactly the allyship Hunter presumably thinks it is when you're playing a racist, classist, sexist card like that. Dr Upton comes across the same way in those 2 days of testimony. I hope that the 3 nurses who are quoted in the paper as being supportive get chance to read some of the transcript from that part of the hearing.

GriefSubmittedHighways · 01/03/2025 11:21

I'm a bit dismayed by the quote above from an impact assessment which said something like "there may be benefits arising from an increased awareness of menstruation issues" as a result of men and women using the same toilets.

I had thought that if only these organisations had carried out the impact assessments that they were meant to, then that would have been a brake on all this disregard of women. But now i'm wondering: Are impact assessments worth much? Are there any legal requirements relating to the seriousness with which they are carried out and the kind of evidence base that is used?

That particular example seemed like some junior employee simply casting around for nice things to say about 'inclusion' and inventing something pretty. It called to mind the image of them completing the assessment in colourful felt-tip pens with hearts instead of dots over the letter i.

What reasons are there to be confident that impact assessments are worth the paper they are printed on?

Arran2024 · 01/03/2025 11:22

It's the Dylan Mulvaney effect. Seems so cute and sweet, wouldn't hurt a fly, some sort of unicorn character who possesses all the nicest female characteristics and who could possibly be afraid of someone like that. Very unlike say Jeffrey Marsh who is much more masculine in presentation.

But as someone I follow on X said, Mulvaney is really tall. He trained in musical theatre, he was a dancer. He is strong and powerful, he just isn't displaying those characteristics.

Peregrina · 01/03/2025 11:25

The only sensible line is 'no males'.

But then how do you get round the Upton's of the world, who swear black is white that they are women? Asking for a birth certificate in Upton's case would prove it, but not with those who have a GRC which falsely states that they are female.

How on earth the medical profession got themselves into a position where they have to pretend that one sex is the other, when it matters when offering treatment?

duc748 · 01/03/2025 11:26

Hence the frequents posts on SM of a photo of someone like Monroe Bergdorf, and people saying, "What, you bigots want her to use the men's toilets?"

FlowchartRequired · 01/03/2025 11:34

Hunter Schaefer playing the 'final girl' in a horror film. I just read Scaefer as male, just from the scene at the beginning of the trailer.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22
Needspaceforlego · 01/03/2025 11:36

FlowchartRequired · 01/03/2025 11:11

Yes, people need to understand that if you let the Blaire Whites into female single-sex spaces, you also let in the Roxy Tickles and the Dolatowskis.

The only sensible line is 'no males'.

I had to look those folk up. Thanks for highlighting them.

Dolatowskis why the fuck is he not with Isla Bryson??
How did he go under the radar?

Itsnotwhatitseemslike · 01/03/2025 11:38

FlowchartRequired · 01/03/2025 11:34

Hunter Schaefer playing the 'final girl' in a horror film. I just read Scaefer as male, just from the scene at the beginning of the trailer.

Yes, the standing shot of the shoulder and back in the blue jacket from behind. Unmistakeable.

Bunpea · 01/03/2025 11:40

TheCourseOfTheRiverChanged · 01/03/2025 10:45

Harking back to earlier discussion of how pretty Upton is, I actually think his attractiveness is part of the perfect storm.
Just this morning an article I was reading had a photo of Roxanne Tickle on it and I had a momentary sick feeling in the pit of my stomach of "Am I just being mean?" He is very unattractive and I think that heightens people's (particularly women's) wariness about bullying or just general nastiness.
But Upton is articulate, successful, attractive, he has a respected career, stable family - there is a shine to him that I think stops more uninformed - or easily guilted - onlookers from going straight to "Oh you're just being mean girls, why can't you be more inclusive?"

Sorry but yuk.
DU is neither attractive, successful ( is wrecking/mayhave already wrecked his career), and who knows if his family is stable.

I find him absolutely repulsive.
The only shine I can see is greasy skin and hair.

FlowchartRequired · 01/03/2025 11:43

Dolatowski was pre-Isla Bryson IIRC, so before the wheels fell of the self ID wagon in Scotland.

Remember the wise words of Ted.

oldwomanwhoruns · 01/03/2025 11:47

Pretty sells papers.
I'm convinced that all of those photos of U. with flowing locks outside the courtroom have been gently tweaked.
We all saw him on the court video link.
When he walked near to the camera (which he did, each time the court took a break) he was unmistakably male.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 01/03/2025 11:48

GriefSubmittedHighways · 01/03/2025 11:21

I'm a bit dismayed by the quote above from an impact assessment which said something like "there may be benefits arising from an increased awareness of menstruation issues" as a result of men and women using the same toilets.

I had thought that if only these organisations had carried out the impact assessments that they were meant to, then that would have been a brake on all this disregard of women. But now i'm wondering: Are impact assessments worth much? Are there any legal requirements relating to the seriousness with which they are carried out and the kind of evidence base that is used?

That particular example seemed like some junior employee simply casting around for nice things to say about 'inclusion' and inventing something pretty. It called to mind the image of them completing the assessment in colourful felt-tip pens with hearts instead of dots over the letter i.

What reasons are there to be confident that impact assessments are worth the paper they are printed on?

I think they're like any other 'tool' used in a process that's supposed to assess elements of that process & the impacts - limited by both the skills, knowledge & experience of those doing them.

I've seen good ones & mostly bad or pointless ones. The nuts & bolts of it only really get tested once the problems (deliberately or ignorantly) unforeseen start to manifest & then later in the court process where the assessment (if there is one) is picked apart & the holes in it are laid bare. It's a pity there isn't one for NHS Fife that NC could pull apart.

You'd think by now the public sector equality duty that's imposed on public orgs for policies & procedures would have a fail safe template to work from, with lots of guidance & legislation tips etc. to ensure you cover all bases. But once the activists got a shit load of funding, and set about 'training' on equality issues, the 3rd sector activist orgs aren't required to abide by the PSED. This is the get out clause for Scotgov trans school guidance where they funded LGBT Youth Scotland to write it, label is guidance (so not statutory or imposed duty to follow) only for local councils to embed the requirement for schools to use the guidance as part of their standards to ensure the meet the council requirements. It's the many tentacles of gender woo activism via gov funded orgs that ends up in a place where the PSED effectively becomes useless. Until challenged, usually legally, and even then there no guarantee anything will change.

But public orgs still outsourced a lot of thinking & work in the expectation it was all 'expert advice'. What they actually ended up with is larping barristers who claim that the definition of man & women in the equality act isn't the ordinary meaning & even the clarification that man is a male of any age & woman is a female of any age, still doesn't tell anyone what the definition of man & women is in law. Hence FWS etc. So the 'experts advice' they've all outsourced to is biased, slanted, ideologically based advice not on the law as it stands, but on the bastardised interpretation that activists want it to be.

🤷🏻‍♀️

Keeptoiletssafe · 01/03/2025 11:52

Who do I send this to? I need to tidy this up but I am fed up of people, who are ignorant of real life situations, creating dangerous policies. My main concern has been medically vulnerable people - hospitals should be the last places with completely private toilets.

Equality Impact Assessments for Disabled people (and those with long term health conditions)

This Policy will be detrimental to people who are disabled. It may cause fear, harm and death. This is due the the design of ‘gender neutral’ or ‘mixed sex’ toilets which are designed to have no visibility gaps and are acoustically sound. Although everyone can suffer a medical emergency which causes death in a toilet, it is more reasonable to conclude it is more likely to be those with pre-existing health conditions.
If you feel nauseous or ill you are likely to head to the toilet. If you collapse, you are more likely to survive, or avoid suffering long-term damage, if someone notices and rescues you.

There are known medical reasons for a disproportionally high frequency of cardiac arrests and strokes while an individual is in the toilet room. There are no UK statistics that list where people collapse. However, it is known there are around 100,000 hospital admissions due to heart attacks in this country, equating to one every five minutes. It is estimated there are 400,000 people in the U.K. with undiagnosed heart failure. There are also around 100,000 strokes in this country, equating to one every five minutes. Around 1% of people in this country have epilepsy and around 80 people are diagnosed with epilepsy each day. There are many other conditions that lead to collapse where you need to be noticed and accessed quickly eg. diabetes and asthma.

Certain disabled groups, to be safe from harm need the standard safety gaps traditionally found in single sex toilet blocks. This is particularly important in public and office toilets where people may be without family/friends/carers.

There are over 55 million people with epilepsy in the world. Roughly 1% in this country. Epilepsy is classed as a disability under the Equality Act. It is an unacceptable risk as successful resuscitation relies on quick rescue times. The brain will start being damaged four minutes after a lack of oxygen. Being able to be seen by having a floor to door gap does save people’s lives.

Staff, such as those with epilepsy, may be considered disabled under the definition set out in the Equality Act 2010, and governing bodies must comply with their duties under that Act to place reasonable adjustments to keep them safe.

Equality Impact Assessment on Age
Older people will disproportionately suffer due to the greater risks of collapsing inside a privately designed cubicle and not being seen.

Equality Impact Assessment on Sex
There is a substantial detriment to girls and women in reducing or eliminating the number toilets that have visibility gaps and you are unable to be heard from. This is due to the fact that women are most likely to suffer from sexual assaults. The gap enables the occupant to pre-assess danger and allows others outside the cubicle to witness a crime. The latter point prevents assaults as perpetrators prefer privacy. Furthermore ‘gender neutral’ designs have a safety mechanism to allow the door to be open outwards from the outside (to enable people to retrieve a body) so a perpetrator can let themselves in. There has been no safety assessment done on the difference in the assault rates inside toilets. There has however been studies on the volume of assaults in schools and hospitals which shows that most are taken in areas accessible to most sexes and private.

Equality Impact Assessment on Religion
This may affect some Islamic, Hindu, and Orthodox Jewish women. (I am unaware of any studies)

I have a lack of data on sexual assaults and type of toilet design. There needs a study to be done urgently. There are lots of examples of rapes in train carriage toilets, in disabled toilets and (historically) store cupboards in schools. These are all places that favour a perpetrator. In Everyone’s Invited there’s accounts of assaults in school disabled toilets. There are many mumsnetters who have told me pupils are having sex in new design toilets at schools. I have police area records of the number of rapes in public toilets and in schools. Hundreds per year reported. And accounts of women being spiked then followed into toilets where they are assaulted. Bars and nightclubs with new style private toilets are prime for this. And the investigation of the assaults in hospitals by the WRN and assaults in schools by the BBC.

More private toilets in a public spaces, where both sexes can be without question, that can be opened from the outside and once inside no one can see or hear you. What could the impact be 😡?

guinnessguzzler · 01/03/2025 12:00

Bunpea · 01/03/2025 11:40

Sorry but yuk.
DU is neither attractive, successful ( is wrecking/mayhave already wrecked his career), and who knows if his family is stable.

I find him absolutely repulsive.
The only shine I can see is greasy skin and hair.

I don't particularly want to get personal but the attractiveness question is, I think, quiet an interesting one in the overall context. I know there are many who completely fail to pass, but how many young, insecure, not typically masculine type males are there who go down this route? And in the process switch from being (perceived as) a geeky loser to 'stunning and brave'. It is literally the ugly duckling personified ... you were judging me by the wrong standard, I was actually a beautiful Swan all along. I can't help but feel that is another driving force in all this, opting out of the standards for males just as young women struggling to cope with society's response to their changing bodies seek to opt out of being female. It really annoys me that Stonewall and the like talk about acceptance when the TRA movement embodies the exact opposite.

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