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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/02/2025 14:11

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
BorneBackCeaselesslyIntoThePas · 01/03/2025 19:35

Seriestwo · 01/03/2025 18:44

I think Napier was the uni that taught midwifery students how to cathetise penises because men can have babies.

Thus sounded so bizarre I had to check, and it’s true

the asteroid can arrive anytime it likes

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/28/midwifery-students-taught-help-men-give-birth/

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 01/03/2025 19:50

BorneBackCeaselesslyIntoThePas · 01/03/2025 19:35

Thus sounded so bizarre I had to check, and it’s true

the asteroid can arrive anytime it likes

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/28/midwifery-students-taught-help-men-give-birth/

😳😳😳

Come join me in the alternate timeline. Anything’s gotta be better than this one.

guinnessguzzler · 01/03/2025 20:07

@BorneBackCeaselesslyIntoThePas That is just ... no ... words fail me. WTF?!

SinnerBoy · 01/03/2025 20:24

What? Do they gestate the babies in their bladders, after producing ova in their kidneys?

Skyellaskerry · 01/03/2025 20:36

Chrysanthemum5 · 28/02/2025 15:47

Good idea @SqueakyDinosaur and yes @KnottyAuty if the letter works I will post the text here

Well done @Chrysanthemum5! I too would be interested in the wording.

Chrysanthemum5 · 01/03/2025 20:45

Hello X (Head of HR) and Y (Head of Legal
Thank you for sending this information on the Trans policy. I have also looked at the updated EqIA for the trans policy.

I have some reservations about the policies, and the EqIA, and I wanted to check with you both that these have been thoroughly reviewed by the legal team before a situation arises where I may have to rely on these documents. I had previous experience with a staff member where there was a possibility of an employment tribunal due to perceived disability discrimination where I had to show that I was following policies, therefore I would like to have that reassurance in this circumstance.

You will be aware of the Sandie Peggie employment tribunal which has highlighted the issue of not checking policies with legal advisers, and relying on the advice of EDI teams. Also, of not having adequate EqIAs in place. My understanding is that the issue is mainly with making single-sex spaces effectively mixed-sex by allowing access on the basis of gender identity. The EqIA notes that this will be the result of the Trans policies.

I believe that the relevant Regulations are regulations 20, 21, and 24 of the Workplace (Health, Safety, and Welfare) Regulations 1992 which state that there must be single-sex toilet and changing facilities, unless they are single, self-contained units. Most of the facilities across the organisation are not single units so should be single-sex. As an aside, even most of the 'gender-neutral' self-contained facilities do not comply as they are accessed behind a door rather than opening on to an openly accessible space.

I note the EqIA says that the impact upon the protected characteristics of sex and religion will be neutral, or have minor perceived negative impacts, and states that "In accordance with the Equality Act 2010, we will provide separate or single-sex facilities where this is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim." This is confusing two different things, the 1992 Regulations do not contain the provision of a proportionate means, they are simply stated as regulations and should not be adapted.

Finally, the EHRC has sent out a letter reminding all public sector bodies of their responsibility to provide single-sex spaces.

I would appreciate a response to confirm that the Organisation's legal advisers are comfortable that the trans policy (and the EqIA) complies with the relevant regulations.

Chrysanthemum5 · 01/03/2025 20:46

That's the letter I wrote. I've had a holding response and I will give them a week to give me a proper response

Itsnotwhatitseemslike · 01/03/2025 21:00

Great letter @Chrysanthemum5

Re Napier midwifery training: Ok, now I really can unleash my intellectual snobbery. That’s just awful.

Itsnotwhatitseemslike · 01/03/2025 21:02

Chrysanthemum5 · 01/03/2025 20:45

Hello X (Head of HR) and Y (Head of Legal
Thank you for sending this information on the Trans policy. I have also looked at the updated EqIA for the trans policy.

I have some reservations about the policies, and the EqIA, and I wanted to check with you both that these have been thoroughly reviewed by the legal team before a situation arises where I may have to rely on these documents. I had previous experience with a staff member where there was a possibility of an employment tribunal due to perceived disability discrimination where I had to show that I was following policies, therefore I would like to have that reassurance in this circumstance.

You will be aware of the Sandie Peggie employment tribunal which has highlighted the issue of not checking policies with legal advisers, and relying on the advice of EDI teams. Also, of not having adequate EqIAs in place. My understanding is that the issue is mainly with making single-sex spaces effectively mixed-sex by allowing access on the basis of gender identity. The EqIA notes that this will be the result of the Trans policies.

I believe that the relevant Regulations are regulations 20, 21, and 24 of the Workplace (Health, Safety, and Welfare) Regulations 1992 which state that there must be single-sex toilet and changing facilities, unless they are single, self-contained units. Most of the facilities across the organisation are not single units so should be single-sex. As an aside, even most of the 'gender-neutral' self-contained facilities do not comply as they are accessed behind a door rather than opening on to an openly accessible space.

I note the EqIA says that the impact upon the protected characteristics of sex and religion will be neutral, or have minor perceived negative impacts, and states that "In accordance with the Equality Act 2010, we will provide separate or single-sex facilities where this is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim." This is confusing two different things, the 1992 Regulations do not contain the provision of a proportionate means, they are simply stated as regulations and should not be adapted.

Finally, the EHRC has sent out a letter reminding all public sector bodies of their responsibility to provide single-sex spaces.

I would appreciate a response to confirm that the Organisation's legal advisers are comfortable that the trans policy (and the EqIA) complies with the relevant regulations.

This should put the wind right up them… Fingers crossed.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 01/03/2025 21:59

BorneBackCeaselesslyIntoThePas · 01/03/2025 19:35

Thus sounded so bizarre I had to check, and it’s true

the asteroid can arrive anytime it likes

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/28/midwifery-students-taught-help-men-give-birth/

I'd happily accept another big flood with a breeding pair of each kind of animal stashed in a lifeboat again. Although that would involve the lifeboat crew knowing what sexes are involved in a breeding pair...

WearyAuldWumman · 01/03/2025 22:00

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 01/03/2025 21:59

I'd happily accept another big flood with a breeding pair of each kind of animal stashed in a lifeboat again. Although that would involve the lifeboat crew knowing what sexes are involved in a breeding pair...

"It's okay - she identifies as a lioness."

RosaCollins · 01/03/2025 22:03

Bunpea · 01/03/2025 11:40

Sorry but yuk.
DU is neither attractive, successful ( is wrecking/mayhave already wrecked his career), and who knows if his family is stable.

I find him absolutely repulsive.
The only shine I can see is greasy skin and hair.

Totally agree. I thought I was hallucinating when i saw posts here about Uptonogood being pretty. WTF.

He looks exactly what he is. An overly entitled man who wants to pretend to be a woman, and force actual women to go along with his delusions. 😡

BonfireLady · 01/03/2025 22:13

Chrysanthemum5 · 01/03/2025 20:45

Hello X (Head of HR) and Y (Head of Legal
Thank you for sending this information on the Trans policy. I have also looked at the updated EqIA for the trans policy.

I have some reservations about the policies, and the EqIA, and I wanted to check with you both that these have been thoroughly reviewed by the legal team before a situation arises where I may have to rely on these documents. I had previous experience with a staff member where there was a possibility of an employment tribunal due to perceived disability discrimination where I had to show that I was following policies, therefore I would like to have that reassurance in this circumstance.

You will be aware of the Sandie Peggie employment tribunal which has highlighted the issue of not checking policies with legal advisers, and relying on the advice of EDI teams. Also, of not having adequate EqIAs in place. My understanding is that the issue is mainly with making single-sex spaces effectively mixed-sex by allowing access on the basis of gender identity. The EqIA notes that this will be the result of the Trans policies.

I believe that the relevant Regulations are regulations 20, 21, and 24 of the Workplace (Health, Safety, and Welfare) Regulations 1992 which state that there must be single-sex toilet and changing facilities, unless they are single, self-contained units. Most of the facilities across the organisation are not single units so should be single-sex. As an aside, even most of the 'gender-neutral' self-contained facilities do not comply as they are accessed behind a door rather than opening on to an openly accessible space.

I note the EqIA says that the impact upon the protected characteristics of sex and religion will be neutral, or have minor perceived negative impacts, and states that "In accordance with the Equality Act 2010, we will provide separate or single-sex facilities where this is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim." This is confusing two different things, the 1992 Regulations do not contain the provision of a proportionate means, they are simply stated as regulations and should not be adapted.

Finally, the EHRC has sent out a letter reminding all public sector bodies of their responsibility to provide single-sex spaces.

I would appreciate a response to confirm that the Organisation's legal advisers are comfortable that the trans policy (and the EqIA) complies with the relevant regulations.

Brilliant letter!

👏👏👏👏👏

BonfireLady · 01/03/2025 22:19

WearyAuldWumman · 01/03/2025 22:00

"It's okay - she identifies as a lioness."

It's all nebulous anyway. The lion can just asexually reproduce, like an amoeba. So it's no problem if the translioness struggles to find her uterus.

SinnerBoy · 01/03/2025 23:01

RosaCollins · Today 22:03

Totally agree. I thought I was hallucinating when i saw posts here about Uptonogood being pretty. WTF.

Come on, it's petty and childish to make sport of his name so. Please refer to him properly as Upton-O'Goode.

SternlyMatthews · 01/03/2025 23:10

Chrysanthemum5 · 01/03/2025 07:32

I think staff and students vote for the Rector and surely staff won't vote for Maggie Personperson (and thank you to the person who came up with that name makes me laugh every time!)

She is a list MSP which means no one directly voted for her but the Greens were allowed to have a certain number of MSPs from their list based on their vote in the election. As far as I'm aware she's lost the elections where she stood as a candidate

As she is elected from a list it is not possible to stand against her in the elections to Holyrood.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 01/03/2025 23:47

MarieDeGournay · 01/03/2025 14:23

It didn't seem to occur to him that whatever about changing his appearance, he has failed dismally to shake off his aura of male superiority, entitlement and argumentativeness.

He's been through a boyhood and a male adolescence and early adulthood, and he's doing a good job of demonstrating what a strong and lasting effect that has on behaviour and mannerisms.

That works against him in two ways: firstly, it may have been one of the reasons - along with physical traits - why some colleagues and patients independently identified him as trans; secondly, it's hard to square his sneery attitude to NC at the tribunal with the weeping shaking delicate flower who had to be helped to his car because, he claims, of his scary interaction with The Incredible Hulk King Kong The Terminator A unit of Royal Marine Commandos ... a nurse.

I agree with you on some of this, but there are a few women who show similar superiority, entitlement and argumentativeness. Katie Hopkins perhaps? Yes, it's probably much more common in men (because of "patriarchy" and sexist upbringing, and possibly even because of an innate male tendency).

Definitely agree on the arrogant sneery attitude towards NC by the weeping shaking delicate flower!

NoBinturongsHereMate · 02/03/2025 00:45

FlowchartRequired · 01/03/2025 11:34

Hunter Schaefer playing the 'final girl' in a horror film. I just read Scaefer as male, just from the scene at the beginning of the trailer.

That's Schaefer!?

I know looks aren't the point - there's no way you could (or should) have different laws for 'the pretty ones'. But from all the fuss being kicked up I thought HS would be closer to passing than that. From the trailer I genuinely would have had absolutely no clue he was meant to be anything other than a man in shorts.

I suggest younger posters do a Google image search for '90s grunge men's fashion' and '90s indie men's fashion' - a good number of the results will look virtually identical (more if you threw the grunge ones in a bath).

duc748 · 02/03/2025 00:52

I don't want to watch the video, but what I would say, as has been mentioned before on MN, is that women have a better eye for this for than men, generally, no doubt for good evolutionary reasons. And, of course, it shouldn't come down to 'passing' anyway. That is no basis for legislation.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 02/03/2025 01:52

I've realised who he reminds me of. Looks just like Roach in Point Break (seen here behind Keanu in pic 16 www.yardbarker.com/entertainment/articles/20_facts_you_might_not_know_about_point_break/s1__37661068#slide_15 )

Didactylos · 02/03/2025 08:12

OK, im afraid I just cant see a 17 year old girl there, looks like an older (20s?) man in face, body, walk
Cuckoo - how apt

Itsnotwhatitseemslike · 02/03/2025 08:14

Well, this is what young kids are now being indoctrinated to believe is a girl.

RethinkingLife · 02/03/2025 08:27

Thoughtful paper on the importance of language.

Effective communication about pregnancy, birth, lactation, breastfeeding and newborn care: the importance of sexed language

Karleen D. Gribble1*, Melissa C. Bartick2, 3, Susan Bewley4, Roger Mathisen5, Shawn Walker6, Jennifer Gamble7, 8, Nils J. Bergmann9, Arun Gupta10, Jennifer J. Hocking11 and Hannah G. Dahlen

www.frontiersin.org/journals/global-womens-health/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full?fbclid=IwAR1GmMyg9yC58i3SargXSSpsw1NgaVoD6raB8cz40YuEgx9VxFTr5A4m4OQ

CarefulN0w · 02/03/2025 08:51

Upton's prettiness (or not) isn't relevant though. He is, always has been, and always will be male.

And in real life, I doubt anyone no other than Upton believes him to be female. He may have found some allies to say they accept him / don't mind sharing facilities, but that doesn't mean they think he is female.

Cismyfatarse · 02/03/2025 08:53

Staff said transgender doctor should not use women’s changing rooms

www.thetimes.com/article/08a8c332-eeca-4b40-8c7a-7c7fc5eb7f33?shareToken=edee2ecd085bdbd9876627d85c8e3e58

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