NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

@fanOfBen
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24916528.branchform-nicola-sturgeon-clears-snp-vetting-despite-probe/

@NoBinturongsHereMate
Yes, but it can be found through the Guardian website, but maybe I should have been more precise.

Although it's too early, in an abundance of caution, just in case people go bonkers posting overnight, here's the next continuation thread:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

As every though, I really would appreciate if people would continue posting on this thread until it's full before moving over to the new one. Thanks!

Would NS be elected if permitted? Are there 'safe' seats available?

Janette Keenan is Director of Nursing & was possibly due to be on panel of Friday's now-postponed fife conduct hearing I think? With Jillian Torrens?

The news article said Head of Nursing but JK came up on a google search under several titles inc Nursing Director and similar.

Justasmallgless · Yesterday 23:00

Just catching up with today's thread.
HR are awaiting the law catching up with them? Is that a joke??

Just breaking the law now, because we expect it to change, despite all the recent law suits going the other way and being lawyers, knowing that it can't be applied retrospectively.

Thanks so much for this link. I started watching, thinking it was just a short clip, but watched the whole hour, absolutely gripping stuff, loved Sarah Phillimore!

Another thank you here for the Mr Menno and Sarah Phillimore video, well worth a watch.

Actually I know they just won't. In my organisation our EDI team in HR have told me they expect the law to catch up with their interpretation of it so they are ok with what they say

I honestly think this is what some school safeguarding leads / companies think when they omitted to tell staff about the kcsie 2024 amendments that included Cass.

In case it helps anyone else and like me you prefer podcast over YouTube videos, you can copy the YouTube link above, go to https://www.podtube.me/ paste it and it will give you link which you can add into your podcast player. (I'm on Android and this works for me)

I wish it were a joke @Justasmallgless and @SinnerBoy but I asked in a large meeting about why we collected data on gender rather than sex and used that as the basis for decision making (eg our toilets are all single gender) and the answer from our HR EDI lead was that currently the protected characteristic was sex but they expected the law to change it to gender. So they felt it was ok to continue ignoring their legal obligations to collect data on sex

The other reason I've been given is that HMRC insists organisations use gender rather than sex so it's easier to make gender the term we use for everything

Halfway through the Mr Menno and Sarah Phillimore chat, it's excellent. So many cases.
SP 'they hitch their parasitic wagon onto gay rights'

Long discussion with DH (H&S professional and fully peaked for several years) about the 1992 regs and sandie’s case. He said that in his experience HR wouldn’t think to consult H&S on matters like this. He said in his view that in SP case & by extension other nurses, regs are clear should be single sex but that sadly it’ll take organisations losing cases in court before they will do anything.

our HR EDI lead was that currently the protected characteristic was sex but they expected the law to change it to gender. So they felt it was ok to continue ignoring their legal obligations to collect data on sex

Fucking hell

No the law is as the law stands now

@BonfireLady

When statutory guidance apparently isn't statutory www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/5254152-when-statutory-guidance-apparently-isnt-statutory

Another example

@Chrysanthemum5 @BonfireLady @WarriorN and others - I knew that lots of places seemed to not quite follow the law with regards to many of these issues, but I assumed they were all ignorant and simply didn’t know or understand the actual guidance.

To find that there are HR departments walking around saying that they are doing “more than required” (as I think someone quoted upthread), because they believe “the law will catch up” - 🤯

How effing widespread is this? And how do we ever weed it all out?

Everywhere that Stonewall trained, as it was one of their guiding principles.

I was shocked to read this about HMRC as they always collected sex. Being retired I missed the change.

Having looked at the guidance they say gender but define it as Male or Female.

I will be writing to HMRC to point out they have conflated sex and gender.

Note: Sex did include employees with a GRC.

Grrrrrrrr.

Can we bring back the guillotine, please?

@Chrysanthemum5 You may find it interesting that following the mess ONS made of the 2021 Census the Office for Statistics Regulation (OSR) was asked to produce guidance on data collection.
https://osr.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/our-work-on-data-about-sex-and-gender-identity/

This led to this guidance https://osr.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/publication/collecting-and-reporting-data-about-sex-and-gender-identity-in-official-statistics-a-guide-for-official-statistics-producers/

The question I will be asking HMRC is why are they not following this guidance when the data is shared with ONS.

Exactly! Rooting this out will be like trying to get rid of japenese knotweed. Going to take years!

Thanks @Harassedevictee I have got myself on the group looking at data gathering for gender equality (they won't move away from that term!) so I will be gathering information for that

Yes - remember the public humiliation of the Office of National Statistics being outed for screwing up the census with an incoherent trans babble question that of course wasn't understood by those with English as a second language. Don't believe they've ever apologised and only grudgingly acknowledged their inability to provide accurate census data.
Another captured organisation at a high level prioritising trans over their core purpose in society

From a daily legal email briefing .......

"NHS Fife failed to get legal advice on trans issue

NHS Fife has come under scrutiny for allowing Dr Beth Upton, a transgender doctor, to use female changing rooms based on the advice of Isla Bumba, the equality and human rights lead, rather than legal counsel

Nurse Sandie Peggie expressed discomfort sharing facilities with Dr Upton, who began transitioning in 2022. Esther Davidson, Ms Peggie's line manager, testified that Ms Bumba stated Dr Upton had a “right” to access these spaces.

Legal experts, including Dr Michael Foran from the University of Glasgow, have argued that NHS Fife had a legal obligation to provide single-sex spaces under the Workplace (Health, Safety, and Wellbeing) Regulations 1992.

Murdo Fraser, the senior Scottish Tory MSP, said: “Leaning on this employee for advice is just one in a long line of mistakes by NHS Fife in this case.” The situation has escalated, with Ms Peggie facing potential disciplinary action for her concerns."

"The other reason I've been given is that HMRC insists organisations use gender rather than sex so it's easier to make gender the term we use for everything"

This might be justified because of the way gender and sex are used interchangeably in legislation - HMRC talk about 'legal gender'.

https://www.gov.uk/tell-hmrc-change-of-details/gender-change

I think sex is now largely irrelevant in tax - certainly to people who are below retirement age.

However HMRC do have a record of your sex linked to your NI number, and the record is updated if a GRC is issued, so to submit correct information to HMRC, you would need to ask for 'legal gender/sex as specified on birth certificate or gender recognition certificate'.

They don't want to know that somebody identifies as non-binary.

Legal Gender is just when a person identifies as a Lawyer surely? There's a lot of that about...