NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

SP story on BBC home page now (not for long!).
BBC using "the doctor" in lieu of pronouns.

Bloody sniveling BBC.

'Not registered female at birth.'

Why can't they just say registered as male?
Why do they have to get 'transwoman!' in the first paragraph.
Why bury the fact that he's a bloke right at the end?
Why leave out the fact that Upton and NHS Fife failed to disclose documents that they were told to hand over before the tribunal started?
Why use that blurry photo instead of the one that clearly shows the beard under the foundation?

What is that phrase again - I must not tell lies

That's curious. The part of the letter they've elided with "[references to sex crimes]" previously read "the implicit comparison of a trans doctor to a rapist and sex criminal".

Perhaps trying to avoid libel action?

The chromosome thing is such a wind up.

Apparently you need skilled expertise to determine peoples sex, but if you start talking about chromosomes, oh my God, the horror.

It's just bullying, plain and simple. As I said on another thread, they are utterly incoherent, but they rely on your coherence in order to leverage it to push their incoherence.

Exactly. It has been suggested Dr U wishes to become a parent. If the suggestion is true, will it be complicated for Dr U to find a woman to carry his minions?

Dr Upton is married to a woman (and claims to be a lesbian). So no issue there.

Presumably they’ll have to toss a coin to decide which one carries the foetus to term though.

I just happened to have a couple of handy cards from Sex Matters.

Second card to Dr Searle. Can only upload 3 images at once.

Murdo Fraser will be on BBC radio Scotland later today

I will be on @BBCRadioScot #DriveTime this afternoon speaking about the @nhsfife Sandy Peggie case #IStandWithSandiePeggie

For Dr Searle

Link to Holyrood TV if anyone interested -

https://www.scottishparliament.tv/

I think I may have posted this on one of the previous threads but in case anyone missed it -

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/08/07/clarity-matters-how-placating-lobbyists-obscures-public-understanding-of-sex-and-gender/

As far as I can see the only references to 'sex crimes' are

"Peggie says she raised her previous experiences of sexual assault to try to engender understanding, and mentioned a recent case when a male prisoner had been put in a female prison."

and

"The board’s expectation that she should tolerate mixed-sex changing facilities is clearly unlawful, and it put a survivor of sexual assault in a traumatic situation."

and

"There is a cautionary tale from across the Atlantic, where Democrats’ stubborn and unpopular defence of men’s rights to self-identify into women’s sport has dropped the unlikeliest of moral victories into President Donald Trump’s lap, allowing a man accused of serious sexual assault to somehow position himself as a defender of women’s rights."

It's not some vague entity called 'patriarchal oppression' doing the sex crimes. It's men.

I did that. Are there resources for any of the other protected characteristics anywhere else? I couldn't find them.

Nope.

I read the original version of that letter. I agree the phrase 'implicit comparison of a trans doctor to a rapist and sex criminal" would have given me the twitch if I were a Guardian legal advisor, seeing as SP has said on record in the tribunal that she didn't say/couldn't even remember the details of the crime in the Isla Bryson case.
Also, 'reportedly' in 'as Sandie Peggie reportedly suggested' is doing a lot of heavy lifting, isn't it?

Many will know Rhona Hotchkiss as a current director of JKR's Beira's Place. RH also made some excellent contributions about prisons from her time as a Prison Governor.

1/7 Some thoughts on the culpability of the NHS Fife Board in the current debacle. The Board Non-Exec Directors are not employees, they cannot be sacked, only asked by ScotGov to stand down. They sit 4-6 days a month on the Board & are remunerated at around 9k/year

2/7 The Board would not usually be aware of Individual Tribunal/ processes taking place - probably around 4-5 a year for a Board with 10k employees. They should be made aware of any process that could present a reputational or financial risk to NHS Fife though.

3/7 Day to day employment issues are ‘Operational’ as opposed to ‘Strategic’ which is the Board’s area of interest/ influence. However, the progress & details of this Tribunal should now be known to them & being discussed by them.

4/7 Board meetings & minutes thereof are made public. There is no requirement for an HR Director to sit as an Executive Director on NHS Boards. There is no requirement for the Nurse Director to sit on the Board, only the Directors of Medicine, Public Health and the Chief Exec.

5/7 NHS Fife’s website has a section on ‘Protected Characteristics’, the resources listed relate to LGBTQI+ & all of them orgs that are about or focus on the TQI plus. Many of those orgs provide inaccurate information about Equality Law. The Board should have spotted this

6/7 One part of the website is laughably out of date - under Equality & Human Rights, they say “Marriage is defined as a union between a man & a woman” only CP is available to same-sex couples. Someone on the Board should have spotted this

6/7 [sic] All of this points to an organisation guilty of seeking only biased/ partial advice on contentious issues & failing to pay attention to relevant Tribunal & Court judgements in relation to employees. This is most definitely a Board matter

x.com/HotchkissRhona/status/1891471288012587474

I've sent her a card of support at that address too. This is really unusual for me. I generally don't get round to doing anything.

I haven't sent a postcard in yonks.
Enjoyed sending one today.

I suppose as BU is most definitely and unquestionably a biological female there is no way on this green earth that BU will be providing the sperms to make the said baby.

I'm sending a postcard too. Would love to send this on a postcard (by Wheeshtcraft on Twitter) but will restrain myself!

Chromosomes are not definitive as to sex at birth. Annoyingly complicated, but true.

Chromosomes are not definitive as to sex at birth. Annoyingly complicated, but true.

Yes they are - there's no other factors like incubation temperature or mother's hormone levels involved.

They way they are definitive might be complicated - not as simple as XX/XY in DSD edge cases - but they are definitive.

Perhaps the song itself should be renamed 'Upton Junk'?

Not that I could find.

They seem to have input from outside agencies for Gender Reassignment and Sexual Orientation - there are links to Fife Rape and Assault centre under Sexual Orientation (not clear why this would be the only link) and the whole page of LGBT resources under Gender Reassignment.

Interestingly the Fife NHS definition of Gender Reassignment is “The process of transitioning from one gender to another gender. This does not have to include any medical treatment, but could simply refer to somebody asking for a new name and pronouns to be used to for them.” (As defined by the Equality and Human Rights Commission)

However, that quote isn't on this ECHR page, which just refers to the Equality Act.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/your-rights-under-equality-act-2010/gender-reassignment-discrimination

For everything else, its a few lines of badly edited copy.

To be fair, perhaps the person who created the page is under resourced and did their best. But you can see how they got into a mess.

https://x.com/ginadavidsonlbc/status/1891523404747907496?s=46

Spineless weasel of a man.

😡