NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

Gaaaaah! That's my nuclear button pressed. WTF is wrong with people not understanding that women is plural and woman singular?! Why's it always "women"? Are we all just a homogenous mass of tits and lipstick? FFS!!!

Well!!! Now that’s a meeting I’d love to be at

i hope there’s a nice welcoming committee for him 😆

I was once in a queue for the toilets in a well known department store, one of the ladies toilets was out of order meaning there was only one women’s toilet, and a very very long queue, my toddler started saying ‘I need a poo’ and doing the I can’t hold it dance. A woman ahead of me said there’s no one in the men’s, take her in there and I’ll guard the door. When we came out there were two men looking very put out and upset that a woman had been in the men’s, not angry but definitely uncomfortable. I’m sure men don’t want us in their spaces almost as much as we don’t want them in ours.

What have you all done to my thread!!!

@nauticant A big boy done it and ran away!

She did it, she did it! <points at everyone>

I hadn't noticed that.

Also, is there a missing tab or link here? I could have sworn there were 9 characteristics?

https://www.nhsfife.org/about-us/equality-and-human-rights/protected-characteristics/resources-for-protected-characteristics/

Yes - it's like they know (or they have been told that) they must be "nice" or be "kind", but they don't understand what they're meant to be nice and kind about.

(Which as none of it makes any sense anyway is hardly surprising)

<Shakes fist at the big boy>

That's shocking 😲

And another thing:

www.nhsfife.org/about-us/equality-and-human-rights/equality-impact-assessment-eqia/

"Equality Impact Assessments (EQIAs)
Like all other Public sector organisations, NHS Fife is required by law to assess the impact of all services, policies, and changes to existing services on equality. It is a way for us to show 'due regard' to the Equality Act 2010 when making such changes. This involves using an evidence base to predict any potential outcomes of the changes on any of the nine protected characteristics and then making any necessary adjustments to reduce or eliminate any negative impact. Overall EQIA's are a way for us to remove discrimination, promote equality and foster good relations with people who have protected characteristics. "

I want to know: Who are the people without protected characteristics? No age, no sex, no sexual orientation - can we see them or are they living in a parallel dimension? Perhaps aliens? Don't they deserve their own protected characteristic?

Too busy on Reddit I guess

The Guardian has published a couple of letters about the Sonia Sodha article from, bloody hell was it only, yesterday

https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2025/feb/16/female-only-spaces-are-a-safety-issue

The first supportive, the second not so much. I'm intrigued by the note the Guardian have added about it at the end of the page

The second letter on this page was amended on 16 February 2025 to better reflect the content of the column on which it comments

It would probably turn out to be nothing much, but I can't help wondering what was changed and why they felt they had to. Especially considering they pick what letters to publish. Did they not have much choice in letters that were against the article?

have a click on 'LGBTQI+' and then 'resources for protected characteristics'

www.nhsfife.org/about-us/equality-and-human-rights/protected-characteristics/

The witches! Burn the witches!

Yes - this is very similar to the approach I try to take. Focus on the biology and issues, but use enough rightspeak not to be labelled a bigot.

Not only do I need a job, but perhaps arrogantly, I also worry who would try to stand up for women if I was pushed out of the way.

Strength to all of us, doing our best to quietly hold the line.

All listed, but resources for only 1. And I note the definition for sex is exceedingly short.

I clicked through to the resources, then onto the Stonewall link

Was greeted with a home page and a series of popups telling me that Amanda from Southampton had just donated, then Souhaib from Chester, then .. donations coming thick and fast.

I refreshed the page and was greeted with exactly the same list, same names, same order. So not a live indication of donations at all, just a timed repetition of a fixed list. Not sure I can be bothered to wait until it wraps around to work out how long the list is.

The sections on Race and Ethnicity and Religion and Belief look as though they haven't been edited/checked. I think an additional religion and belief section has been accidentally added to Race and Ethnicity.

https://www.nhsfife.org/about-us/equality-and-human-rights/protected-characteristics/

"Race & Ethnicity
Refers to the Protected Characteristic of Race. It refers to a group of people defined by their race, colour, and nationality (including citizenship) ethnic or national origins. (As defined by the Equality and Human Rights Commission)
Religion and belief.
Scotland is a religiously and culturally diverse country and NHS Fife respects the religious needs of patients in their care. Belief is a very individual concept and may include religious and philosophical beliefs including the absence of a “set faith” (e.g. Atheism). An individual’s beliefs should shape their life choices, or the way they live their life, for it to be included in the definition. (As defined by the Equality and Human Righ(As defined by the Equality and Human Rights Commission).
Religion and belief
Religion refers to any religion, including a lack of religion. Belief refers to any religious or philosophical belief and includes a lack of belief. Generally, a belief should affect your life choices or the way you live for it to be included in the definition.'

I suspect they have received advice on some of the protected characteristics but, the rest is a bit of a copy and paste job.

Well I hope Neil Gray isn’t going to NHS Fife on Wednesday to play nicey nicey. He needs to get a grip on the situation.

Hopefully he will be announcing vacancies in a variety of departments such as CEO, HR, legal plus replacements for ED,KS and AG

Where are the resources for age, disability, religion, pregnancy, race ?

Are they being discriminatory in their provision of resources ?

Reading through the Guardian/Observer articles upthread reminded me of something I intended to comment on last week when I spent mist of the day without a phone signal.

Chromosomes
Is it my imagination or is it just the transwomen that babble on about chromosomes and sex being a spectrum...clownfish etc?

It becomes an issue for women when there are DSD's competing as women, but doesn't really feature outside cheek-swab testing.

NC didn't really push Dr U on the chromosome "harassment", but I suspect it was a product of his "I'm not a robot" imagination.

On one side of this tribunal you have a woman with a legally protected belief that Upton is a man. Certain types of expression could be deemed harassment. On the other side we have a man who is protected from discrimination on grounds of gender reassignment - but we dont know if his belief that he is a woman passes the test to be legally protected. Moreover the manifestation of that belief that involves compelling the speech of others even when he is not present has never been tested in court. That would seem to be an infringement of other's rights.

NHS FIFE seem to be insisting that any and all of Upton's beliefs must be legally protected. The court took a different view by allowing the use of "misgendering" even in his presence because it was a proportionate way to achieve a legitimate aim. Are NHS FIFE now going to say the judge was wrong or admit that "misgendering" Upton to others during an investigation was also proportionate.

People asked about finding surrogacy upthread and another post asked if there was ever about ministerial input into NHS organisations.

Bringing these issues together, I have experience of DH input into a surrogacy funding decision. I used to provide clinical input to funding appeals and our panel was asked to approve funding for a surrogate's costs. Before we met, and this was over a decade ago, the DH got in touch to "remind" us that funding panels should not set precedents. So yes, I would love to know what reminders NHS Fife are receiving currently.

We didn't approve the funding, so no reminder was required.

Well quite. Resources for one characteristic only.

Nothing at all for people with disabilities, who are the biggest cohort that the NHS deals with on a regular basis, surely. Or for the elderly.