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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/02/2025 14:41

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

OP posts:
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32
rebmacesrevda · 17/02/2025 13:53

@TriesNotToBeCynical the conflation of DSD (previously referred to as "intersex") with non-binary is further evidence of woeful ignorance, and potentially insulting to members of either group. These people just have no idea what they are doing.

PaintDecisions · 17/02/2025 13:53

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/02/2025 13:44

I was going to add a comment in response to the PP saying 'not your fault, the BBC aren't sure either' and then quote the BBC article where they blamed the overrun on NC taking too long to question the witnesses.

I searched but was unable to find any stories on the BBC website about the tribunal. What are the secret words that you have to use in the search box to find the relevant reports? - I tried Fife NHS, Scotland, employment tribunal, Sandie, Upton etc. but nothing brings up a relevant story

Any suggestions for search terms that work? - maybe I'm just being dim

Not just you, I'm getting the same results in the BBC News app!

If you Google on chrome or similar for BBC News and any of the keywords / names, it brings up all the articles in recent weeks.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/02/2025 13:56

NebulousDog · 17/02/2025 13:51

SlackJawed: you need to go to "Scotland" and then Fife Region nowadays, though some did make the homepage for a day before being buried:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5ydnxy5019o

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77r058y30eo

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8j8dygdm19o

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy8p41z972vo

Thanks Nebulous, navigate to the right subsection and you see a list.

Did you do a search to find the above links or pull them from the list you see on BBC - Scotland - Edinburgh Fife and East?

I'm interested as if the stories don't turn up in a general search then how are people who do not frequent 'BBC - Scotland - Edinburgh Fife and East' supposed to find out about them?

rebmacesrevda · 17/02/2025 13:57

@SlackJawedDisbeliefXY People are not supposed to find them! 😂

Seriestwo · 17/02/2025 14:00

I’m sending a post card to Sandie c/o CEO, or maybe NHS Fife’s press office.

x.com/gussiegrips/status/1891477028014112898?s=46

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/02/2025 14:00

rebmacesrevda · 17/02/2025 13:57

@SlackJawedDisbeliefXY People are not supposed to find them! 😂

Reb, 'You might think that but I could not possibly comment'

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 17/02/2025 14:03

https://x.com/murdo_fraser/status/1891476397710868698?s=46

"Just been notified that @neilcgray will be visiting @nhsfife at Queen Margaret Hospital, Dunfermline on Wednesday morning. Will he be bringing a sheaf of P45s?"

Questions being tabled are due on the Thursday, so perhaps the health minister will be armed with lots of details to answer them.

🤷🏻‍♀️

duc748 · 17/02/2025 14:04

But nothing on the latest twist to the story on the BBC site, though. I'd have thought this tribunal was one of the biggest stories in Scotland at the moment, but what do I know?

snickersbarchild · 17/02/2025 14:04

Seriestwo · 17/02/2025 14:00

I’m sending a post card to Sandie c/o CEO, or maybe NHS Fife’s press office.

x.com/gussiegrips/status/1891477028014112898?s=46

I actually bloody did this earlier today. I'm not worried if she doesn't actually get it, I'm sending it more as a visible sign of protest. Fuck the lot of them.

SinnerBoy · 17/02/2025 14:05

Imnotavetbut · Today 13:39

I have recently been engaged in legal proceedings with a hospital trust due to my work. Obviously I can't go into details but their conduct was outrageous, and continues to be so.

Holy shit, that's disturbing to have read.

snickersbarchild · 17/02/2025 14:05

snickersbarchild · 17/02/2025 14:04

I actually bloody did this earlier today. I'm not worried if she doesn't actually get it, I'm sending it more as a visible sign of protest. Fuck the lot of them.

Sorry, the ire was not aimed at you! I'm just incandescent about how they have treated her.

FiveBarGate · 17/02/2025 14:10

That picture. Everyone else in normal clothes in what looks like an office and then the two on either end

Merrymouse · 17/02/2025 14:10

NoBinturongsHereMate · 17/02/2025 13:22

EH queried NHS Fife’s stance in relation to intersex patients. IB stated that in terms of the policy, we would treat intersex people in the gender they are presenting in, similar to how we would treat and manage non-binary patients

The first part of this is medical nonsense - and dangerous to not treat people according to their sex. The second part is logical nonsense- how can you treat someone in the gender they present when they are presenting in not-a-gender?

Meanwhile, on the Fife NHS website

https://www.nhsfife.org/about-us/equality-and-human-rights/protected-characteristics/

Sex is:

"A man or a women. (As defined by the Equality and Human Rights Commission)"

and the EHRC says

"In the Equality Act 2010, sex is understood as binary being either male or female. It can mean a group of people like men or boys, or women or girls.
Under the Act, a person’s legal sex is the sex recorded on their birth certificate or their Gender Recognition Certificate. A trans person can change their legal sex by obtaining a Gender Recognition Certificate."

I can't help thinking of Bubble in Ab Fab or Alice in the Vicar of Dibley.

prh47bridge · 17/02/2025 14:10

PaintDecisions · 17/02/2025 13:53

Not just you, I'm getting the same results in the BBC News app!

If you Google on chrome or similar for BBC News and any of the keywords / names, it brings up all the articles in recent weeks.

To be fair, the search facility on the BBC website has always been crap in my experience. It regularly fails to come up with items that are definitely there, particularly news items.

HootyMcBoobs · 17/02/2025 14:13

Here we are over halfway through thread 20, and WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE USUAL SUSPECTS?

COME ON you finger waggers and drive-by scolders!
Where are you?

What have you got to say about this fucking shitshow?
How do you plan on defending this?

You are very conspicuous by your absence, not ONE of you has turned up on these tens of thousands of posts. Not ONE.

Aren't you going to defend your "biologically female" friend?
You should all be ashamed of your lack of support for the cause.

Not willing to stick your fucking heads above the parapet for him eh?

Cowards.

CriticalCondition · 17/02/2025 14:18

FiveBarGate · 17/02/2025 14:10

That picture. Everyone else in normal clothes in what looks like an office and then the two on either end

I was under the impression Scotland is not known for its balmy climate. They'll be catching a chill dressed like that.

rebmacesrevda · 17/02/2025 14:18

@HootyMcBoobs Decorum, please.

I think the people you're after are on Reddit, passing the victim card around the circle, and agreeing with each other that it'll all be fine because Dr Upton is "only a witness" 😂

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/02/2025 14:18

prh47bridge · 17/02/2025 14:10

To be fair, the search facility on the BBC website has always been crap in my experience. It regularly fails to come up with items that are definitely there, particularly news items.

Yes, you are correct, a generally poor tool.

I see it as a sort of halfway house to the world of 1984 - Past news is not actively changed but the search tools are so poor you can't find news from the past.

rebmacesrevda · 17/02/2025 14:21

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/02/2025 14:18

Yes, you are correct, a generally poor tool.

I see it as a sort of halfway house to the world of 1984 - Past news is not actively changed but the search tools are so poor you can't find news from the past.

"Who misplaces the past misplaces the future" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/02/2025 14:23

rebmacesrevda · 17/02/2025 14:21

"Who misplaces the past misplaces the future" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

Pound-shop 1984?

Ipresumecantrecall · 17/02/2025 14:24

I’m not sure if this has been posted already but it highlights the consequences of women requesting same sex care. The ordeal this former solicitor went through after a male nurse entered her room whilst she was preparing for an operation, prompting her to request same sex care, resulted in her care being cancelled and a terrible ordeal.

“The scarlet lipstick was the first thing that stood out. It continues to baffle Teresa Steele today.
‘I was transfixed by it because it seemed newly applied,’ she explains.
‘You know when you have bright red lipstick with a very clearly defined edge? It doesn’t last. It has to be reapplied. This lipstick looked as if it had just been done.

‘With the rest of the heavy make-up — and there was a lot of eye make-up, too — and the blonde wig, my first thought was that this was a patient who had got lost. It was about 6.30pm, so I remember thinking specifically that it was a patient leaving, on their way to a night out.’
This was not a patient. The person who had knocked on the door and simultaneously entered the hospital treatment room where Teresa had been undergoing pre-operation assessments, including intimate swabs, was a nurse — but not a nurse who had anything to do with Teresa’s care.

‘The whole situation was just peculiar, most unnatural. The nurse who was already in the room with me indicated that the room was occupied. There was a brief exchange.
‘I don’t know what exactly was said, but instead of just backing out or saying “Oh, sorry”, as you’d expect, the person lingered and made eye contact, which again I found odd and disconcerting.
‘As soon as he had started to speak, though, it had confirmed my first thoughts — that it was a man.’
Actually, the nurse was a trans woman, but already at this early point in our interview — an interview about how potentially dangerous it can be when trans rights clash with women’s rights in a hospital setting — we get into trouble with language.
‘I won’t say “she”,’ insists Teresa, when we get into the inevitable tangle about pronouns.
‘I won’t buy into this language. Obviously if I were speaking to this person directly, I would observe courtesy by using their chosen name. But in certain contexts, I reserve the right to call him a man, because he is a man.”

To read about what happened next please have a read of this article. It was also reported in TT.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12398959/amp/Retired-solicitor-left-deaths-door-surgery-cancelled-dared-object-trans-woman-nurse-hospital-room-tells-shocking-story-vowing-cancel-Im-not-scared-speak-out.html

Cookiepuss · 17/02/2025 14:27

I'm catching up on this again today as after seeing the update last night that Sandie was going to be hauled into a disciplinary meeting on Friday, I had to step away for the sake of my blood pressure. Unfortunately, it didn't stop me ruminating on a few things which I know have been raised/discussed on here many times.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the terms "transwoman" and "transman". I have lost count of the number of times I have explained and when the penny drops I get the "woah didn't realise that" in response. The average person just does not understand the difference and generally think a transwoman is a biological woman preferring to be "seen as male".

Complacency - if it doesn't affect someone negatively then they pay less attention. I asked my DH what he would do if a woman was using the male toilets. His response was something along the lines of he has never experienced that and why would a woman want to set foot in the men's anyway as surely they would feel embarrassed. I asked him if it did happen would he find it uncomfortable - he agreed he would but thinks most men would point out the woman was in the wrong place, wait for them to leave and carry on. I asked what he would do if the woman stayed and insisted on using the facilities - he laughed and didn't think that was a likely scenario as surely a woman would feel intimidated/threatened surrounded by men with their genitals on display (oh, the irony)! But the first answer was that it's never happened to him so not something he would worry about = complacency.

I was really concerned to read some comments from medical professionals who admit they and their colleagues are scared of stating what is biological reality (although I fully appreciate why this is). In my view, the silence leads to people thinking if the trained, medical professionals are not speaking out and stating the facts, then it must be OK. Many people are too busy and no doubt have their own personal challenges to even give it headspace.

How the hell have we got to a position where organisations are bending over backwards to appease the delusions of a tiny minority and, in doing so are completely walking over the rights of women.

I feel quite despondent today that nobody with the power to do so is actually standing up and saying WTAF is going on here.

Finally (sorry, long post) thank you for the poems and the rewriting of Uptown Funk which made did make me laugh - genius!!

Seriestwo · 17/02/2025 14:31

snickersbarchild · 17/02/2025 14:05

Sorry, the ire was not aimed at you! I'm just incandescent about how they have treated her.

I could tell, and am also ire-d

DeanElderberry · 17/02/2025 14:34

Dear God in heaven, it actually says 'a man or a women'

What happens to these people if they write the word 'woman'? Does a demon appear and disintegrate them?

Talkinpeace · 17/02/2025 14:36

When even the mild mannered barristers start swearing on Xtwitter
you KNOW its all gone pear shaped

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