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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/02/2025 14:41

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

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32
Bannedontherun · 17/02/2025 13:17

@prh47bridge Thanks for that!

Boiledbeetle · 17/02/2025 13:19

Stillamum3 · 17/02/2025 13:12

Long time lurker on this thread, and I've been trying to read everything, but I wanted to ask why the delay in this tribunal until July? Is it because all the evidence has been given and the judge is considering the verdict, or is there another reason?
Poor Sandie, what a long wait!

It's to get the remaining evidence and finish questioning witnesses as it took longer than expected. July is the soonest judge and barristers according to their work calendars can all be available

NoBinturongsHereMate · 17/02/2025 13:19

Stillamum3 · 17/02/2025 13:12

Long time lurker on this thread, and I've been trying to read everything, but I wanted to ask why the delay in this tribunal until July? Is it because all the evidence has been given and the judge is considering the verdict, or is there another reason?
Poor Sandie, what a long wait!

Lots of documents weren't disclosed, and the progressive revelations (and interruptions, and DU's windbag tendencies) mean they didn't get through all the witnesses. So they've had to schedule a second slot and that was the first time everyone was able to make.

thenosiesttermagant · 17/02/2025 13:20

CheekySnake · 17/02/2025 11:54

At the same time as men are being asked to comment on what they feel is appropriate language for women in labour, there's also on the side an increasing push for the NHS to offer fertility treatments for gay (male) couples, which we all know means NHS funded surrogacy. I don't know that there's a clear link between these things, but I do think that the one is helping the other. Removing the word 'mother' from these policies effectively begins to strip women of legal rights and recognition of motherhood, doesn't it, because the law requires the language, and when the law also starts to refuse to acknowledge any difference between the sexes, the legislation around fertility treatment gets very sticky too.

This tribunal on the surface is just about Upton but it feels like it's part of a bigger societal shift, and one in which women are completely screwed over. We've been given too many rights and need putting back in our place.

Spot on. Women haven't had the vote for really very long at all in this country. We need to remember that, remember what's happened to the women of Afghanistan and Iran and FIGHT, hard. Thank goodness for modern day suffragettes like Sandie Peggie.

snickersbarchild · 17/02/2025 13:21

If there is a reaction to the latest development from Fife NHS or Scottish government, where will it come from? What channels do I need to be monitoring?

ExitPursuedByABare · 17/02/2025 13:22

Late to say

WTAF

NoBinturongsHereMate · 17/02/2025 13:22

EH queried NHS Fife’s stance in relation to intersex patients. IB stated that in terms of the policy, we would treat intersex people in the gender they are presenting in, similar to how we would treat and manage non-binary patients

The first part of this is medical nonsense - and dangerous to not treat people according to their sex. The second part is logical nonsense- how can you treat someone in the gender they present when they are presenting in not-a-gender?

rebmacesrevda · 17/02/2025 13:23

snickersbarchild · 17/02/2025 13:21

If there is a reaction to the latest development from Fife NHS or Scottish government, where will it come from? What channels do I need to be monitoring?

FMQs at Holyrood on Thursday is viewable online. It's about time Swinney made a stand on this.

anyolddinosaur · 17/02/2025 13:24

@Cailleach1 I think the judge is going to be pretty pissed off - so yes, increases the chance of it being granted.

Also if I "misgender" someone to another person the person I've misgendered can't be "harassed" by that until someone tells them about it. So that person is the one doing the harassing. Therefore the "misgendering" would have to be in court, when a tribunal judge approved it.

RedToothBrush · 17/02/2025 13:26

What is 'misgendering'?

If the words sex and gender can be used so interchangeable, why can't it be true that its 'misgendering' to insist on calling males female.

This has implications for biological women.

IDasIX · 17/02/2025 13:26

NoBinturongsHereMate · 17/02/2025 13:22

EH queried NHS Fife’s stance in relation to intersex patients. IB stated that in terms of the policy, we would treat intersex people in the gender they are presenting in, similar to how we would treat and manage non-binary patients

The first part of this is medical nonsense - and dangerous to not treat people according to their sex. The second part is logical nonsense- how can you treat someone in the gender they present when they are presenting in not-a-gender?

If you’ve got your lippy on they will treat you as a woman, if you’re unfortunate enough to lop off your finger while doing some DIY in your trousers, you’ll be treated as a man.

We can only assume the clinicians in this meeting all just nodded in recognition of the superior knowledge of the EDI officer.

NebulousDog · 17/02/2025 13:30

I can't resist pasting some comments from X

Dennis Noel Kavanagh (lawyer):
DNK: NHS Fife have made an intriguing tactical call here which is bound to be memorable.

DNK: Never interrupt an enemy making a mistake.

Somebody I don't follow: "When you use the word "intriguing" would it be reasonable for us non-legals to use "bats**t suicidal"?

DNK: Congratulations! You have reached Level 1 in Duolingo lawyer speak!

....
DNK: Well, if nothing else, whoever is managing litigation strategy at NHS Fife has certainly achieved a great deal of notoriety for the organisation both in terms of their strategic innovation and preparedness to withstand adverse public comment.

Stillamum3 · 17/02/2025 13:31

Boiledbeetle, GargoylesofBeelzebub and NoBinturongsHereMate Thank you for explaining. I knew about the lack of disclosure by DU but hadn't put 2 and 2 together about that with the lack of time for all the participants.

duc748 · 17/02/2025 13:38

NebulousDog · 17/02/2025 13:30

I can't resist pasting some comments from X

Dennis Noel Kavanagh (lawyer):
DNK: NHS Fife have made an intriguing tactical call here which is bound to be memorable.

DNK: Never interrupt an enemy making a mistake.

Somebody I don't follow: "When you use the word "intriguing" would it be reasonable for us non-legals to use "bats**t suicidal"?

DNK: Congratulations! You have reached Level 1 in Duolingo lawyer speak!

....
DNK: Well, if nothing else, whoever is managing litigation strategy at NHS Fife has certainly achieved a great deal of notoriety for the organisation both in terms of their strategic innovation and preparedness to withstand adverse public comment.

My, he has a silver tongue, that fella! 😃

CheekySnake · 17/02/2025 13:38

RedToothBrush · 17/02/2025 13:26

What is 'misgendering'?

If the words sex and gender can be used so interchangeable, why can't it be true that its 'misgendering' to insist on calling males female.

This has implications for biological women.

Misgendering = correctly sexing

Imnotavetbut · 17/02/2025 13:39

I can well believe that this is an incompetent hospital trust being an incompetent trust. There is very little thirst for the truth or fairness in the NHS, and they will pursue whatever narrative suits them best.

I have recently been engaged in legal proceedings with a hospital trust due to my work. Obviously I can't go into details but their conduct was outrageous, and continues to be so. They didn't submit evidence, denied other evidence existed (even when it was in front of them) and didn't even respond when threatened with contempt of court. Had I not have been so closely involved in the case, I wouldn't have believed their behaviour. The outcome was not favourable for them. Despite this, and instead of using it as a chance to reflect and learn lessons, they have instead plastered all over social media about how wonderful a certain member of staff was (who partially caused the action to have to be taken) and have presented them with an award for their participation in the case. In the background, they have submitted a 14 page report against someone who was congratulated by the Judge due to their exceptional evidence and they are now facing an investigation. If I wasn't witness to this myself, I'd think it was made up but sadly it's not. It doesn't matter what you present to them, they simply act as if they can't read - it's bizarre. A whole court judgment which proves they were wrong (it wasn't even finely balanced, it was very clear) and they are paying it no mind at all, whilst viciously pursuing someone who the Judge was thoroughly impressed with.

It appears that there's a penchant for NHS legal batshittery but they seem to get away with it. Even when they don't, they don't seem to care - water off a ducks' back and on to the next one.

Manxexile · 17/02/2025 13:40

NoBinturongsHereMate · 17/02/2025 13:22

EH queried NHS Fife’s stance in relation to intersex patients. IB stated that in terms of the policy, we would treat intersex people in the gender they are presenting in, similar to how we would treat and manage non-binary patients

The first part of this is medical nonsense - and dangerous to not treat people according to their sex. The second part is logical nonsense- how can you treat someone in the gender they present when they are presenting in not-a-gender?

I puzzle about this a lot. (I'm retired).

If the misgendering is about using "he/him" instead of "she/her", how would the person being misgendered ever know about it?

Nobody uses third person pronouns in conversation or or other transactions with somebody, you use the second person "you" which has no gender.

But if it means saying to somebody who identifies as a woman that "you're a man" then that is simply a biological fact and i can't see the problem.

(i'm aware I haven't expressed the above very well but it's difficult to do when what you're trying to talk about makes absolutely no sense in the first place)

duc748 · 17/02/2025 13:41

EH queried NHS Fife’s stance in relation to intersex patients. IB stated that in terms of the policy, we would treat intersex people in the gender they are presenting in, similar to how we would treat and manage non-binary patients

Rather depends on the meaning of 'treat', here, I think. Treat as in, provide medical treatment for someone, or treat as in, behave in a certain way towards this person.

NoWordForFluffy · 17/02/2025 13:42

NebulousDog · 17/02/2025 13:17

Stillamum3. Intentionally or otherwise, NHS Fife and Dr Upton withheld a lot of evidence that should have been disclosed. They have only managed to get through a handful of witnesses (only Dr Upton and 1 employee at Fife NHS).

Trying to get Court time that is convenient for the legal reps, judge and panel members is like herding cats. Naomi has quite a few gender cases lined up (I thought one of them was starting this week).

July was the earliest they could all get together in person, but they have videocalls arranged to go through Upton's phone at the end of March (assuming the police were allowed to seize it)

Your last paragraph isn't right.

They have the video call arranged to go through the parties' various applications to vary the previous directions. One of those applications will be NC asking for permission to have DU's phone examined.

As already advised previously, the police won't be involved in seizing his phone as this is a civil, not criminal, matter. It'll be handed over to SP's solicitor, or another agreed party, for it to be examined.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/02/2025 13:44

Stillamum3 · 17/02/2025 13:31

Boiledbeetle, GargoylesofBeelzebub and NoBinturongsHereMate Thank you for explaining. I knew about the lack of disclosure by DU but hadn't put 2 and 2 together about that with the lack of time for all the participants.

I was going to add a comment in response to the PP saying 'not your fault, the BBC aren't sure either' and then quote the BBC article where they blamed the overrun on NC taking too long to question the witnesses.

I searched but was unable to find any stories on the BBC website about the tribunal. What are the secret words that you have to use in the search box to find the relevant reports? - I tried Fife NHS, Scotland, employment tribunal, Sandie, Upton etc. but nothing brings up a relevant story

Any suggestions for search terms that work? - maybe I'm just being dim

RedToothBrush · 17/02/2025 13:45

Imnotavetbut · 17/02/2025 13:39

I can well believe that this is an incompetent hospital trust being an incompetent trust. There is very little thirst for the truth or fairness in the NHS, and they will pursue whatever narrative suits them best.

I have recently been engaged in legal proceedings with a hospital trust due to my work. Obviously I can't go into details but their conduct was outrageous, and continues to be so. They didn't submit evidence, denied other evidence existed (even when it was in front of them) and didn't even respond when threatened with contempt of court. Had I not have been so closely involved in the case, I wouldn't have believed their behaviour. The outcome was not favourable for them. Despite this, and instead of using it as a chance to reflect and learn lessons, they have instead plastered all over social media about how wonderful a certain member of staff was (who partially caused the action to have to be taken) and have presented them with an award for their participation in the case. In the background, they have submitted a 14 page report against someone who was congratulated by the Judge due to their exceptional evidence and they are now facing an investigation. If I wasn't witness to this myself, I'd think it was made up but sadly it's not. It doesn't matter what you present to them, they simply act as if they can't read - it's bizarre. A whole court judgment which proves they were wrong (it wasn't even finely balanced, it was very clear) and they are paying it no mind at all, whilst viciously pursuing someone who the Judge was thoroughly impressed with.

It appears that there's a penchant for NHS legal batshittery but they seem to get away with it. Even when they don't, they don't seem to care - water off a ducks' back and on to the next one.

How do we think there's been so many maternity scandals?

It's not merely due to short staffing imo.

NoWordForFluffy · 17/02/2025 13:45

IDasIX · 17/02/2025 13:26

If you’ve got your lippy on they will treat you as a woman, if you’re unfortunate enough to lop off your finger while doing some DIY in your trousers, you’ll be treated as a man.

We can only assume the clinicians in this meeting all just nodded in recognition of the superior knowledge of the EDI officer.

I'm really fucked if I need medical attention then, as I'm tall with short hair, don't wear make up, and mostly live in jogging bottoms and hoodies. I'm soooooo shit at womanning!

TriesNotToBeCynical · 17/02/2025 13:49

duc748 · 17/02/2025 13:41

EH queried NHS Fife’s stance in relation to intersex patients. IB stated that in terms of the policy, we would treat intersex people in the gender they are presenting in, similar to how we would treat and manage non-binary patients

Rather depends on the meaning of 'treat', here, I think. Treat as in, provide medical treatment for someone, or treat as in, behave in a certain way towards this person.

I'm not sure there is such a thing as an "intersex" patient, at least outside of very rare paediatric patient. Even if intersex characteristics had ever been a problem they will as an adult have a birth certificate confirming their sex, and no reason to dispute this. Unless they coincidentally want to change their gender in which case it will not be an intersex issue. I am mystified. Surely if they meant non-binary they would have said so?

rebmacesrevda · 17/02/2025 13:49

@NoWordForFluffy you're not alone. I think there's quite a few of us that could use some womanning lessons from Dr U.

NebulousDog · 17/02/2025 13:51

SlackJawed: you need to go to "Scotland" and then Fife Region nowadays, though some did make the homepage for a day before being buried:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5ydnxy5019o

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77r058y30eo

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8j8dygdm19o

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy8p41z972vo

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