NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

"A Lawrie also comments that another consideration is the use of the word ‘women’ is maintained within maternity services due to many patients being of this gender and a concern around losing this word from their vocabulary."

Trying to make the point, but can only do so in terms of gender. Must not do wrongspeak.

I noticed this too.

An Lawrie is doing what many in this thread have discussed doing in their own work settings - politely raising concerns while trying to appear to be on board still so as to not anger the monitors ...

I can't say for certain but probably not. Ministers generally cannot interfere directly in operational matters.

It’s more likely it was sent by someone in HR on their one day a week in the office before they took time off for the school holidays. Yes, I’m THAT cynical as to how little actual thought was put into the consequences of it!

That's certainly the constitutional position. But I do know that in a principality that is part of the UK health board CEOs have frequent regular meetings with civil servants in the relevant government department. And it would not be wild speculation to suppose that they are given advice they cannot refuse on current issues.

And yet an ex cafe worker seems to be able to!

Holy moly you lot move fast

it was half term in Fife weds-fri last week so it could well have been a quick rush out before HR took any leave and beore NC did her x examination.

NHS must surely be panicking - they are utterly incompetent.

If any heads roll, IB has to be one of them.

"So what are we going to do about this disciplinary action? Is that happening or not?"

"I don't know - I think they said it had to be after the tribunal"

Looks up end date of hearing. Sends letter.

I can totally see that as a possibility.

@prh47bridge I seem to recall that ED Balls intervened in the continued employment of the head of Social services and had her removed under some statutory rule Shoesmith case?

i believe that Court of Appeal held it as unlawful though.

Ministers can certainly apply pressure, either through the civil service or by making public statements. Whilst ministers are not supposed to interfere in operational matters, they don't always stick to that.

That's why I used the words "desperately trying".

I'm not suggesting that what they are doing is right or possible.

Everything they have done so far has been either questionable or simply wrong.

I see no reason to believe they've suddenly got better advice.

I'm simply suggesting that they might be trying - ill-advisedly - to get out of this fuck up rather than trying to victimise SP further - which other posters are suggesting

Power and influence are different. Ministers cant interfere directly. They could do things like discuss the quality of legal advice that NHS FIFE is getting and suggest getting a second opinion/ mention any advice given about similar cases.

I'd no longer place any bets on NC's application to see Upton's phone.

Bit of a random thought, but my NHS Trust (and that will be across the board) have been making big of menopause the last couple of years, and their policies to support staff and make adaptations. I don’t know if they mention menstrual flooding, but that is certainly part of menopause and should be accounted for.

(Photo of the first entry that came up in a google search)

Postcard I'm sending to SP at the hospital.

I am so SICK of all this erosion of women's sex based rights and the nonsensical language that's been invented to pander to a tiny minority of people at the expense of women's and girls' safety, privacy and dignity. Bollocks to it all and I feel so sorry for all of you still employed who have to endure this pathetic 'groupthink' at work. I'm retired now thankfully and don't have to wade through this garbage. Sending 💐to you all.

@anyolddinosaur “I'd no longer place any bets on NC's application to see Upton's phone.”

I’m probably a bit slow, but can I ask if you think this means the application to see the phone will be approved?

I disagree with him on many things - and I've never voted Tory - but when I emailed all the Fife MSPs asking them to support the Lamont amendment designed to allow women to ask for same-sex medical care - he replied almost immediately. I got positive replies from all the Tory and Labour MSPs.

The Green bloke replied to tell me that I was wrong.

Never did get a reply from Jenny Gilruth.

All eyes on FMQs this Thursday...

Scotland getting progressively angrier on the petition map... witches of England, Wales and NI, join us!

Long time lurker on this thread, and I've been trying to read everything, but I wanted to ask why the delay in this tribunal until July? Is it because all the evidence has been given and the judge is considering the verdict, or is there another reason?
Poor Sandie, what a long wait!

I could totally believe this except that someone would have had to check availability of the witnesses, the people conducting the hearing, the room, etc before the letter was sent. All that coordination doesn't happen instantly. Which means it was being considered and arranged well before the letter was sent.

Because NHS Fife and Dr Upton did not give all the evidence requested.

Correct. He used special powers to remove Sharon Shoesmith as head of children's services for Haringey Council without compensation following the baby P case. She won her claim for unfair dismissal and eventually agreed a six-figure payout as compensation.

Stillamum3. Intentionally or otherwise, NHS Fife and Dr Upton withheld a lot of evidence that should have been disclosed. They have only managed to get through a handful of witnesses (only Dr Upton and 1 employee at Fife NHS).

Trying to get Court time that is convenient for the legal reps, judge and panel members is like herding cats. Naomi has quite a few gender cases lined up (I thought one of them was starting this week).

July was the earliest they could all get together in person, but they have videocalls arranged to go through Upton's phone at the end of March (assuming the police were allowed to seize it)