NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

It's quite the overreach to decide that gay men and transwomen should get to influence the removal in the NHS of fundamental safeguarding for women and girls, eradicate the use of accurate sex based language and to, in any way, influence the medical care of women giving birth.

But that extract from Fife's governance committee showcases why we're in this mess with the NHS outsourcing their thinking and medical ethics to those with zero experience, insight or qualifications.

This was my first thought on hearing about this.

They're desperately trying to right everything they've done wrong and say this should never have happened.

It will certainly be interesting to see how the Scottish government responds.

This is incorrect, as Fife cannot undo the things that were done as per Sandies claim.

I'm not sure if covered across all the threads or not:

I assume female patients to this hospital would also be in the same up Shits Creek situation if they are using the female toilets and an obvious-this-is-a-man walks in on them?

Complain and have any further care taken away? Plus a note on their medical records?

Extract from the Sex Matters weekly memo - Sandie knows that Mumsnet is on her side

This week belongs to Sandie Peggie. This message comes from her:

I have been overwhelmed by the cards, flowers, and messages of support I have received from across the world.
There are so many people I want to publicly thank – my family, friends, the people who have attended my hearing in person or followed it remotely in considerable numbers. I would like to thank those who helped get my case to tribunal and have supported me along the way, including Neale Hanvey, Maya Forstater and Sex Matters.

There are more supporters and groups than I can name, but I’d like to give particular thanks to For Women Scotland, Women Won’t Wheest, Women’s Rights Network Scotland and the women of Mumsnet

I don’t have the words to thank my incredible legal team Naomi Cunningham, Charlotte Elves and Margaret Gribbon, and Michael Foran has been an incredible asset.

I am so grateful to all those who generously contributed to my late father’s Just Giving Page for the Scottish Society of Rheumatology, which has now raised over £11,000.

I’m also so thankful to those who contributed so generously to the Crowdfunder set up by a supporter this week. I’ve made the decision to donate this money to charity and will update everyone on the page once this has been done.

There are many others who have supported me, but who I know do not wish to be named. I thank you all from the bottom of my heart.

The evidence heard so far vindicates my decision to oppose Fife Health Board’s attempts to have my hearing held in private.

This has been a gruelling process, but I will continue to legally challenge Fife Health Board’s policy of forcing women to share workplace changing facilities with men.
Sandie x

Oh my godddd.

this ideology makes absolute fucking idiots of everyone who touches it

The time, the money, the effort expended in trying to keep it coherent is absolutely fucking insane. Who can write shit like that and not look at it and think what the ever fuck am I doing???

*Discussion followed around confidentiality of trans patients on wards, e.g. a trans man on a male bay may get asked questions that can be overheard, such as ‘when was the date of your last period’, which may result in accidental subsequent disclosure of Trans Status to patients in neighbouring beds.

Seriously???

edited to add, I know people are wondering whether this is all stupidity, or transactivism.

Judging from that bloody load of old bollocks, the terms are synonymous.

While that may be obvious to you and I, it was also fairly obvious that speaking to a man like that wasn’t going to make him change his behaviour anyway, he was always going to claim harassment. The proper way to do it is to go through the management structure then bring the employment tribunal against the hospital for their illegal policies. Yes that would lead to more uncomfortable encounters in the changing room, but that is the way the law works.

And without consultation from groups or women representing women - not the maternity staff member saying 'no' was overruled.

Charities etc I think - not government, not business, those being the first two sectors, iiuc.

At the same time as men are being asked to comment on what they feel is appropriate language for women in labour, there's also on the side an increasing push for the NHS to offer fertility treatments for gay (male) couples, which we all know means NHS funded surrogacy. I don't know that there's a clear link between these things, but I do think that the one is helping the other. Removing the word 'mother' from these policies effectively begins to strip women of legal rights and recognition of motherhood, doesn't it, because the law requires the language, and when the law also starts to refuse to acknowledge any difference between the sexes, the legislation around fertility treatment gets very sticky too.

This tribunal on the surface is just about Upton but it feels like it's part of a bigger societal shift, and one in which women are completely screwed over. We've been given too many rights and need putting back in our place.

The third sector in the UK is a term for a variety of non-governmental, non-profit organisations that operate independently of the public and private sectors. They are also known as voluntary or community organisations.

Examples of third sector organisations:

Charities
Social enterprises
Community groups
Mutuals
Housing associations
Faith and equalities groups
Co-operatives
Community interest companies
Thinktanks

We should also remember that there are laws put in place supposedly to protect women where it only happened if the man perceives it to be so.

Rape laws being the key one.

Not one consideration as to how these policies would impact female patients and staff.

It is an umbrella term covering charities, voluntary organisations, community organisations, social enterprises, co-operatives and some others. Basically, non-governmental organisations that are not for profit and are values driven.

Edited to add that I see others got there before me!

@prh47bridge Sandie referred to "Beth" frequently in court and in response to questioning said she tried to use preferred pronouns but it wasnt always easy to do so. Both the judge and Upton's own barrister "misgendered" him in court, illustrating the difficulty.

Is there anything Sandie can say at this hearing except my solicitor advises me that i must not discuss my legal case against you and therefore I can not defend myself here without being in contempt of court.

Edit because its his barrister.

Hard to disagree with this. When you look at the exceptionally successful attempts of this relatively new "social justice" movement to influence, it could only have happened because those involved were powerful men with influence in the highest quarters. Look at the behaviour of the judiciary, the police, the armed forces, politicians, regulatory bodies (the CQC, Ofsted, FSA etc), civil service including the ONS, DfE, the NHS plus GMC, BMA, the male led unions (Unison and the rest), Universities and of course the bloated charity sector.

Every single one of them, beclowning themselves with the insistence that men (no matter how predatory) must be given access to women and girls when undressed, that the language of women is bigoted and - in the face of the damning fact that only women give birth - twisting themselves into knots to try to pretend otherwise.

I know that we're currently watching the painfully slow reverse ferret but are these predatory beliefs now too deeply embedded in society? Have our children been so gaslit that they'll never be able to find the courage to stand up as SP has done and say "Enough of this shit?"

Sigh.....

If I were her solicitor that's broadly the advice I would be giving her.

Surely it is inhuman to have done this to Sandie. Does this not amount to constructive dismissal, already? Would she not be well within her rights to say “See you in Court”?
I know she loves her job, but this level of harassment and stress puts an enormous physical and mental strain on a person. She needs to protect her health. I kind of wish I had the funds to just whisk her away to a private island somewhere, and send in a sick note.
I speak from experience. I got horribly bullied by management at work and successfully fought off the Disciplinary proceedings, but I became very unwell in consequence, and then had to fight for medical retirement. 15 years on, I’m still traumatised, but one of my colleagues took their own life.

Constructive dismissal cases are hard to win. She might be within her rights to say "see you in court", but the safer route would be to stick with the process then go for unfair dismissal if she is dismissed. If they discipline her but stop short of dismissal, that might be the time to think about a constructive dismissal claim.

Yes I was very surprised her manager didn’t say don’t raise it with him yourself directly, surely this would be sound advice in any situation where someone is complaining to a manager about a colleagues behaviour?

Thanks.
Are there any ministerial powers to force NHS Fife to take disciplinary action or seek to recover costs from the hospital decision-makers on the grounds that they incurred huge costs by taking action without, or against, legal advice?
Theoretically, obv, I know that won't happen! It just makes me so angry to think that this is taxpayers' money being wasted.

I think ED claimed not to remember Sandie having said anything about needing to raise it with Upton herself? Which may have been a wise thing not to remember.

I'd be very happy to cover a (small!) proportion of her living costs for as long as it takes. I'm absolutely livid about this. I thought the way an NHS Trust treated DW was bad, but this is even worse.

Those committee meeting minutes are interesting.

The JD for Bumba’s role, and the issues that get brought to these meetings, make it clear that the Equality Lead Officer role is outward facing (about patients), not internal (about staff). So Bumba has either willfully,
massively overstepped in offering the advice to ED that BU could not be excluded, or she has a much wider role - in HR matters - than the JD noted. Just to reiterate, she was approx. 2 months into the role when she gave the advice that arguably precipitated this whole sorry mess.