NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

That would be far too sensible. But I agree it would be the logical thing to do.

I bet the atmosphere in Victoria Hospital is "interesting" this morning.

Oh to be a fly on the wall. 🧐

I think I'm confused again.

Disciplinary action against the staff calling SP in for this disciplinary?

Can you comment on whether SP and DU / other witnesses can talk at this hearing or whether it would undermine the tribunals instructions not to talk about the case? Or whether this whole hearing undermines the ET at all?

Thanks!

What a fucking mess.

This shitshow has finally surfaced me as a longtime lurker. Shades of the Horizon scandal here, where the Post Office aggressively and vindictively went after those caught up in the institutional lies and wrongdoing.

Chapeau to Nauticant on reporting on both.

We’re gonna need a lot of therapy chickens. And a much bigger bar of chocolate.

I would dearly love to know what the other nurses think of all this.

Those minutes from the board mtg of 2.2.23 are interesting. My summary is -

IB to lead development of new trans policy for patients. This will include specifications on most up to date and appropriate language, as what was used 5 years ago may no longer be appropriate according to IB. Intention to involve the community in discussions to develop. Organisations names are Pink Saltire, Transfender Fife and The Hive). R Alexander keen to help. D Wilson knows an in house specialist who should get involved and will make introductions (specialist not named).

A Lawrie of maternity services wants to get involved. Her team might have concerns about language used and should maintain the use of the word woman as many of their service users are of this gender. (Many??? All, surely!)

M Rotherham asks about trans policy for staff and is told by B McKenna that most HR policies are provided by Scotland Policy Grp. B McKenna to investigate and report back.

So, having read that, my Qs are -

• any other groups consulted on this list of up to date appropriate language?
• did B McKenna find a Scotland Policy Grp policy for trans staff? If so, what did it say? If not, what did the board do about it?
• why did a maternity specialist have to soften the message that ALL of their patients are female?

Interestingly Nick Wallis the guy who wrote the book about the post office scandal is onto the gender madness and aghast at what has been going on

As Foran says, because the defence in the tribunal has asserted that she is guilty of harassment, and neglect of patients, they can not have a fair disciplinary hearing, because they have publicly declared her guilt.

so such a hearing will only view be deemed unfair.

if she looses her case (unlikely) then and only then could they conduct a disciplinary hearing.

because they have already decided her guilt any hearing at all will be unjust.

So in a nutshell they can not lawfully have a hearing on the matters before the tribunal ever.

If the staff who decided to hold this disciplinary meeting on Friday did so without taking legal advice or, worse, in defiance of legal advice, NHS Fife would be entitled to take disciplinary action against them.

Yes, any witnesses talking to this hearing could potentially be in breach of the judge's instructions and hence in contempt of court. Given what the judge has said, that would appear to include witnesses who have already given evidence, which is not surprising given that they could be recalled when the hearing resumes.

As various lawyers have commented on other forums, this move by Fife is not going to go down well with the tribunal.

JR referred to an ET that found misgendering could be considered harassment - this is possibly the case she referred to https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/article/1745060/security-guard-repeatedly-misgendered-employer-wins-harassment-case

Note that in that case sex had been wrongly recorded by the employer. No-one genuinely believed the woman to be a different sex and the "misgendering" was an administrative error they didnt promptly correct.

Not at all the same as having a legally protected belief - ruled on by EAT so binding - that the person in front of you was male.

Also similar to Horizon - staff given responsibility for areas where they lack technical competence and training.

Organisations names are Pink Saltire, Transfender Fife and The Hive

The Hive?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hive_(character)

For clarity, whilst the belief is protected it does not mean that any and all expressions of that belief are protected. You can still be found guilty of harassment for expressing a belief even if the belief itself is protected. Having said that, I don't think SP has overstepped the mark.

While I think the ET will go in Peggie’s favour overall I think it’s possible that they will say that she shouldn’t have brought it up herself directly with Upton, she should have taken it higher if her manager hadn’t done anything.

Quoted from the minutes for a committee that reports into Governance. This committee meeting was 03.02.2023

Bumba has reviewed other Boards policies. Some engagement work with services and organisations like Pink Saltire, Transgender Fife and The Hive will be undertaken as part of the development of this document. R Alexander asked what form the engagement work would be in, for example is it to inform the patients or to ask the patients to help shape the policy? I Bumba explained that it would shape the policy and that she values their input and knowledge. R Alexander is happy to support this piece of work in its early stages as HIS has lots of different tools which can support the engagement process. To set up a meeting between I Bumba and R Alexander

A Lawrie stated that her team in Maternity Services would welcome an opportunity to be part of this piece of work. This community and maternity staff might have concerns around certain aspects of the policy like language used. It would be good to have them included in the development of this policy. This service is seeing an increase in patients coming into the unit that identify under a different gender from the sex they were assigned at birth. A Lawrie also comments that another consideration is the use of the word ‘women’ is maintained within maternity services due to many patients being of this gender and a concern around losing this word from their vocabulary. G Strang stated that this is a subject that has tensions and that groups may have concerns that their voices are not heard if we don’t engage with this community. The group agreed that there should be engagement undertaken as part of the development of the Trans policy. The group was asked to send in any suggestions or comments. Once the policy is ready I Bumba will send out the draft version to the group for comment. J Keenan thanked everyone for the valuable contribution to this agenda item. She explained that it is a good piece of work that we would like to do well in NHS Fife. I Bumba explained that language use can be out of date and what we talked about 5 years ago might not be correct today. This policy will give an opportunity use the most up to date and appropriate language. I Bumba to develop an action plan to help progress the Trans policy.

https://www.nhsfife.org/media/3cvq76zi/staff-governance-committee-meeting-papers-20230309.pdf

I'll post another note separately.

https://www.thehivefife.org.uk/

I cannot think of ant other reason to go to a new tribunal other than to seek an injunction to prevent the disciplinary hearing going ahead.

And Peggie cannot be disciplined for discussing offending behaviour with an fellow employee before making a formal complaint, which of course she was prevented from doing.

While I think the ET will go in Peggie’s favour overall I think it’s possible that they will say that she shouldn’t have brought it up herself directly with Upton, she should have taken it higher if her manager hadn’t done anything.

But won't it be pretty obvious that she could have taken it higher and still got the same (incorrect) response - that DU had the right to be there ?
And meanwhile, each time she asks someone and waits for a response, that's more occasions that she is obliged to get changed with the possibility of a man in the room with her against her wishes.

The panellist did ask a question about Sandie saying to ED that she'd have to raise it directly with dr Upton.

Third parties who have exactly what experience?

The third party problem - have you bothered to check the experience and what you are being told or do you just take it at face value at the risk they are incompetent/ideologically driven/unprofessional?

My experience of third sector charities and organisations is the sheer degree of amateurism they possess.

(Reminds me of when Asda did this and published links to inappropriate content for children as part of an LGBTQ campaign - they didn't content check).

What is the third sector please?

Quotations from this meeting in 2024 are from a committee that reports into the overall committee. The quotations are from a meeting on 01.02.2024:

IB requested feedback, comments and approval from the group on the ‘NHS Fife Wide Trans, Non-binary and Gender Non-conforming Patient’s Policy’. MG provided feedback on use of language, particularly use of ‘security’ in 4.3 ‘In-patient Accommodation’. IB to review and make amendments accordingly.

Discussion followed around confidentiality of trans patients on wards, e.g. a trans man on a male bay may get asked questions that can be overheard, such as ‘when was the date of your last period’, which may result in accidental subsequent disclosure of Trans Status to patients in neighbouring beds. JK stated that feedback from the NHS Fife communications team was to keep the policy as succinct as possible therefore appendices have been removed and will be contained in one supporting document accessible through Stafflink.

EH queried NHS Fife’s stance in relation to intersex patients. IB stated that in terms of the policy, we would treat intersex people in the gender they are presenting in, similar to how we would treat and manage non-binary patients, unless informed otherwise. JK informed the group that there will be staff awareness training which will include use of language and understanding terminology.

GS asked is there any data around preferences from Trans people within a patient care setting that could be shared. IB to check for any relevant recent publications. IB advised Terrence Higgins Trust had reviewed and approved policy from a Trans-community perspective. Group provided approval of Trans policy on the assurance above listed action points will be considered. [My line breaks for clarity. My italics to draw attention to involvement of Terrence Higgins Trust for review and approval.]

www.nhsfife.org/media/nvfngbpq/public-health-wellbeing-committee-meeting-papers-20240304.pdf

I believe the letter about the disciplinary hearing was sent to SP about 2nd day of hearing so before shit show. Perhaps times to arrive at end of SP testimony. If that’s true it can’t be a strategy to offset shitshow?