NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

Language matters doesn't it?

The use of the word restroom indicates American hijacking and trying to wedge an agenda rather than using the correct words.

There are no restrooms in Scotland.

Well I guess behaving in this absolutely batshit but chillingly totalitarian way is one way of ensuring no other nurses, who may have thought about coming forward to support to Sandie after last weeks shit show, will now risk doing so

Oh please can we have a Scottish government meltdown down over this?

It's been teetering on the brink for some time on this subject.

Looking forward today, to seeing how many MSPs find their brains and can decide what a woman is and how many are still stuck in the land of repeating what they think they should say so they don't fall out with their mates over and above those they are supposed to serve.

Historically Scotland was witch hunt central.

We do need a 'WTAF' react button.

Have just caught up with last night’s bonkers development. I have no expertise in employment law so baffled at what the ‘strategy’ here is but tend to agree with those who doubt it’s strategy when incompetence seems much more par for NHS Fife’s course.

Even if they decided to press on in light of Sandie’s ‘admission’ of harassment in the cross examination (which I don’t agree was an admission in the sense some are alleging) that seems extraordinarily high risk to me given the whole of the current proceedings are surely relevant to everything they need to consider at the disciplinary. To proceed when the tribunal is still hearing evidence and when it might make a decision that is highly relevant to the disciplinary seems like madness to me. In fact whatever the Tribunal’s decision it’ll clearly have relevance.

It also seems a bit mad because when you have a barrister so closely involved in a case, it’d be quite usual (at least in my civil litigation area) to phone them up and say ‘by the way, know we’ve got the hearing ongoing but we’re thinking we’ll just do XYZ during the adjournment - that’ll be okay won’t it?’.

So have NHS Fife just decided to crack on despite having a fully up to date barrister on board with the current situation? Ignored her advice? Not asked her at all? It’s all very odd. But fully aware that I don’t know the intricacies of employment law so perhaps there is an explanation somewhere.

Morning all - and there was me thinking this might be a quieter week and easier to keep up! Thanks @nauticant again, and everyone else. I like to try to read all contributions, a real challenge between work commitments so far but well worth it.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24937927.sandie-peggie-tribunal-gray-told-nhs-fife-acted-illegally/

Sorry its behind a pay wall, but they were told about this

Health Secretary Neil Gray was warned in June last year that NHS Fife may have acted illegally in the row over a trans woman doctor's use of a female-only changing room, The Herald on Sunday can reveal.

How can two people who are high up in the church be proud of their child imposing himself on women?

Interesting discovery on Twitter that clarifies who wrote NHS Fife's relevant policy.

Well well well, what do we have here? A meeting where Bumba is planning to do a trans-policy to NHS Fife... in 2.2.2023, what was the timeline when Ms. Peggie was not told for 2months about Fife's policies about men in women's dressing rooms.

https://www.nhsfife.org/media/3cvq76zi/staff-governance-committee-meeting-papers-20230309.pdf (Start reading from pg 232 - trans policy discussion starts on 233: I'll warn you now it contains the deprecated word "intersex")

The NHS Fife will not give male patients singe-sex rooms either in their 'trans policy'. This is from 1.2.2024

Why is Isla Bumba in NHS Fife giving out guidance how to treat intersex, surely not? It can have serious health consequences, no? (and is not DSD more appropiate?)

https://www.nhsfife.org/media/nvfngbpq/public-health-wellbeing-committee-meeting-papers-20240304.pdf (see pg 233)

Thread starts: https://x.com/Tea94852859/status/1890921735282626816

It was also reported in the Times that Gray was informed months ago, and I can do a sharetoken for that:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/add19475-8b71-44d5-badf-22cc4b1f9a81?shareToken=84e5f6aa626ff243e659cbb78c4e8123

It's an option for anyone involved in a court case to settle at any time, especially when new information comes to light during the process. The only way Sandie will settle is if she gets the claims about patient safety thrown out.

JR is paid by FIFE NHS, not Dr U. FIFE are going to have to pay out a lot of money and have a lot of questions to answer because their procedures were wrong and they will lose. The question is really if JR so steeped in ideology that she is not advising them to settle any which way they can and/or is FIFE so wedded to the ideology they cant admit they were wrong.

I somehow doubt they are that bright. Your giving them far too much credit. My guess is a bit of money is behind this

If Sandi is suspended they probably need to pay her. If she's sacked they don't.
If she's suspended they'll need to help her get her registration back. If she's sacked not their problem.

If she wins the case they need to cough up. If she doesn't they don't.

I'm not giving them any credit for being "bright" - if they were they wouldnt be where they are now. I'm speculating on whether their lawyer is capable of giving good advice or FIFE senior management of listening to it. Not bright people can still be able to realise when they are in the shit.

When Sandie wins - and she will as the process was all wrong - they will need to pay her for the suspension. Might as well get some work out of a nurse with 30 years experience when you'll be paying her anyway.

I was wondering this too. Following this line of thinking, could SP claim more damages because of the impact of the postponement? Could this be mitigated by resolving the matter now?

If they had all their ducks in a row on the patient safety claims, wouldn't this have been more obvious in evidence submitted so far?

Another query, following this line of thinking - could there be political pressure from an external source to appear to have done the right thing? (whether or not that is now trying to shut the stable door once the horse has bolted)

For sardonic relief, I recommend Jedaboo's exchanges on this thread. Lawyerly/Yes, Minister expressions such as "A course of action not lacking in ambition"; "bold and audacious"; "One might almost call them courageous" to savour.

NHS Fife have made an intriguing tactical call here which is bound to be memorable.

https://x.com/Jebadoo2/status/1891223694682243266

Or possibly, they have managed to scrape up another transgender member of staff who is prepared to testify that Sandie Peggie avoided looking at them too (or looked at them, or spoke, or didn't, I can't quite keep up), thus establishing a pattern of Dangerous Behaviour.

IF (big if) Sandi has someone with magically deep pockets behind her and I really hope she does. Taking this to the final conclusion by the courts and courts of appeal if necessary is the only way to blow all the TWAW stuff to Mars.

This case has everything in it.

Dr's who are supposedly educated in 'o' grade, 's' grade, 'nat 5' biology the qualification might have changed but the M/F hasn't changed since Adam & Eve

Dr's acting as women going against reasonable requests, for same sex care.
This has implications in anything with same sex care, medical care, police, prison care, airport security, rape crisis centres and others beyond my brain.

Dr in the female changing room, implications for all workplaces, prisons, schools, gyms.

And I'm going to say it even the names,
Upton it even sounds posh, Peggie how can a surname sound so feminine? Not normal trade names like Smith, Cooper or Mc / Mac names. I almost feel like there's a hand of God in there.

But again, if this is evidence they already had (and if they gave Sandie notice on day 2 of the tribunal, then they had it at least then), it should have been handed over to the tribunal. Surely?

I'm also inclined to think, "They surely can't have been stupid enough to get back behind the wheel of the JCB and keep digging," and to wonder if this is a move towards damage mitigation rather than reckless escalation on the part of NHS Fife. The letter setting out the consequences looks alarming and it's normal to leap straight on to the worst possible outcome - they're planning to sack Sandie Peggie - but it's more compliant with correct practice than ED luring Sandie into her office without representation on the pretence of "just a chat".

If I were in Dr Searle's position I'd probably be weighing up whether it might be in my own best interest to hold up my hands and say, "I made a real shitshow of handling that, it's my fault, I'm really sorry, I'll suck up all the retraining you tell me to do."

I think JR is a professional and I wouldn’t be surprised if she learnt of this via the media.

If that is the case I expect NHS Scotland and Fife Hospital to be getting a polite email asking WTF is going on.

Is this not contempt of the ET's ruling that witnesses avoid talking about the case?

The ET is in the midst of Fife's witnesses giving evidence and has yet to hear from key people such as IB, KS and others - it seems extraordinary that Fife would decide to take this action now without waiting for the outcome of the ET..

Extraordinary is indeed one way of looking at it 😳

I bet teams is read hot there this morning

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20?

Pepe seems similarly minded because, otherwise, it seems a remarkable strategy for a KC to have aligned herself to - especially as the non-disclosure of documents/communications became such a contentious issue and is the grounds for the April hearing to arrange matters.

The only conclusion I can come to that makes any sense is that they assumed the tribunal would be over last Friday and that they would win. And once they sent out the notice that Sandie would have to attend the investigation, they couldn’t take it back, even when the tribunal drove straight off the cliff.