Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Flip

1 2 ··· 21 22 23 ··· 39 40

Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/02/2025 14:41

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

OP posts:

Thread gallery

Kucinghitam · 17/02/2025 08:23

It's rather fascinating, TRSOHers don't just pinch laydeez identities, they even pinch thread titles

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276208-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton

fanOfBen · 17/02/2025 08:26

CriticalCondition · 17/02/2025 01:19

Do we know how old she is and when she will turn 55? Was it in her evidence? I missed the first couple of days.

If she turns 55 in, say, a couple of weeks, is Fife trying to turn the screw on her to settle the ET in the next few days by unpausing the disciplinary process and introducing the threat of being dismissed this Friday and thus losing her pension?

A sort of 'nice pension you've got there, shame if anything happened to it. Settle your ET claim, we'll keep you employed on your birthday as part of the deal, we don't have to disclose any more very embarrassing stuff and you can walk away with some compensation, a mealy mouthed apology and your full pension.

Although how this works with R2 as a respondent I don't know.

It's late and my brain is struggling.

A quick browse at scotlandspeople shows that SP was born in 1973.

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 17/02/2025 08:29

A remind to anyone reading - Health is devolved, in other words controlled by the Scottish Government, not Westminster. So please stop talking about Starmer and Streeting. Yes they should be aware and make changes in England & Wales but they cannot influence this.

Further information on what is devolved can be found here: www.parliament.scot/about/how-parliament-works/devolved-and-reserved-powers

Harassedevictee · 17/02/2025 08:36

I imagine Wes Streeting is busy contacting the Darlington hospital and asking them to make sure they have done everything correctly.

The benefit in this case is a) many nurses complained b) the hospital offered an alternative albeit to the women not the man c) I’ve not seen any allegations of professional misconduct.

Peregrina · 17/02/2025 08:37

Didn't the Judge order them not to discuss the case, as far as is reasonably possible until the second part is heard. So how is bringing Sandie before a disciplinary board not discussing it? Unless they have (fabricated) totally new evidence?

Could someone be held to be in contempt of court?

ThatsNotMyTeen · 17/02/2025 08:40

Largofesse · 17/02/2025 05:24

This is a clever read of potential strategy that would make sense of otherwise inexplicable behaviour yet we’ve seen no evidence that there is anyone at Fife who is remotely strategically clever. I wonder if it is more likely to be incompetence? In my own institution, many years ago, redundancy letters were triggered in error automatically at the end of a pre-loaded date range for a post — even though subsequently the post hadn’t been closed at the end of that period. In a stab at looking like they’d followed procedure in the lead up to the IX could this have pre-loaded and the letter triggered without anyone clocking it was set to do so? It would seem unlikely given that schedules would need to be checked but possible?

Mind you - there is also arrogance coming off the internal legal team given the failures to disclose. Could it be that they are trying to create some sort of conflict of interest that would make it difficult for KS to become R3?

Show quote history

It might also explain why NC never applied for strike out of the R’s response for the non compliance with orders, knowing this was coming

RethinkingLife · 17/02/2025 08:44

RethinkingLife · 16/02/2025 21:43

Peter Daly's additional thoughts in line with some thinking on this thread and in response to another lawyer's inquiry, "It’s just staggering. Who on earth is advising them?"

I can’t believe there are any qualified professionals involved. It’s so implausible that my initial view was that the most likely explanation is that someone has misled the press. But there is a quote from Ms Peggie’s solicitor, so the story must be right. I’m completely baffled.

An NHS approach in whistleblowing claims is to take every point, escalating at every juncture, until C runs out of money and gives up. If that’s the plan here (and it’s the only one I can think of) it’s spectacularly misguided given publicity & support for C (1/2)

(2/2) And it’s also far more strategic than NHS Fife have shown thus far. That’s why I think it’s straightforward Gender Ideology madness.

https://x.com/peter_daly/status/1891232722372243457

Bumping Peter Daly's tweet thread. PD has worked as a solicitor with Ben Cooper KC on some notable ETs like Maya's.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 17/02/2025 08:46

Chrysanthemum5 · 17/02/2025 07:57

I just don't understand why we have to keep going to tribunals etc - at what point do HR and lawyers say 'Ok that mess with gender identity trumping sec was a total shit show let's get back to the actual law'

Actually I know they just won't. In my organisation our EDI team in HR have told me they expect the law to catch up with their interpretation of it so they are ok with what they say

What?!?? so they're using their own interpretation of the law as they would like it to be rather than what the law actually is?!?! What could possibly go wrong?

Surely all the GC court case wins must be giving them some pause for thought?

CarefulN0w · 17/02/2025 08:46

I'm very willing to believe this is incompetence. Afterall, Fife appear to have quite the track record.

As in after 2 days of the ET, this seems to be going our way, so we'll reconvene the disciplinary and sack the witch.

It would have been fun to watch a few faces as NC got going and I would love to hear their exec team meeting this morning.

Projectme · 17/02/2025 08:47

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 17/02/2025 07:57

I can't believe the Telegraph says Upton gets to come and give evidence at SPs disciplinary on Friday.

Can you get any more witch hunty or bullying than that?

But remember guys, he didn't want her to be punished or get into trouble....

For the love of god...this is shocking 😳

How could this holy fucking mess get any worse? 😖

And @MNHQ we seriously need a new 'shock' emoji . The thumbs up or clapping emoji's just don't work in this scenario!

fanOfBen · 17/02/2025 08:49

I've just emailed Carol Potter (ever so politely - be careful about that folks). Thinking it through: the only credible reason I've seen so far for why they'd want to sack SP part way through a tribunal is this thing about it preventing the ET from ruling that their unlawful policies need to be amended. However, suppose the judge ends up writing a ruling that says "I would have ruled that their unlawful policies needed to be amended in this, this, this way; unfortunately their action in sacking SP, in whose favour I've just ruled, prevents me from doing so". What price their policies then? Who's going to obey or enforce them? It makes no sense, and surely we're going to hear later today that it was all a mistake.

myplace · 17/02/2025 08:49

Kucinghitam · 17/02/2025 08:23

It's rather fascinating, TRSOHers don't just pinch laydeez identities, they even pinch thread titles

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276208-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton

Posted by the User name- Inauthentic 🤣

CarefulN0w · 17/02/2025 08:53

I gave up on the Archers a few years ago, but I think this sign was granted for one of the anniversaries, It represents the village pub, the Bull and sometimes feels apposite.

What else should we have? A wren for dear Ben?

hollyblueivy · 17/02/2025 08:53

NoBinturongsHereMate · 17/02/2025 00:31

NHS pension technicality that those outside nursing may not be aware of. Given her joining date and role, it's likely that SP has special class status - this allows her to take her full pension at age 55. To do this you have to be in a qualifying NHS role on your 55th birthday. Otherwise the pension age reverts to 60.

If she's dismissed, and not able to get (or can't face) a new NHS nursing job elsewhere, she will lose not just her salary but also 5 years of pension payments.

This is so sad if this happens. Sad isn't strong enough a word. The people n the other end seem so heartless. She worked for them for 30 years!

CarefulN0w · 17/02/2025 08:57

I see inauthentic uses "restrooms" on the other thread. @myplace.

anyolddinosaur · 17/02/2025 08:59

There is only one way this is going to go well for FIFE - if this disciplinary hearing finds there was no evidence to support Dr U's comments on patient safety being compromised and tells the people involved in the investigation that they failed to properly and promptly investigate. It could remind them that gender critical views are a protected belief and that they failed to adequately take that into account. So basically exonerate Sandie and then at the reconvened tribunal argue that if the disciplinary process had been allowed to run its course the tribunal was unnecessary. They'd still have to pay damages but it would reduce the amount considerably and avoid further legal costs.

I hope the FIFE board have come to its senses and will do that and are not simply doubling down on we have the power and we will crush you. That's going to increase both damages and legal costs.

needmoresheep · 17/02/2025 09:00

Wander how NC and JR are feeling about the latest updates?

Did Fife tell JR about their latest cunning plan? Which bright spark in Fife came up with it?

needmoresheep · 17/02/2025 09:00

Wander how NC and JR are feeling about the latest updates?

Did Fife tell JR about their latest cunning plan? Which bright spark in Fife came up with it?

Greyskybluesky · 17/02/2025 09:03

needmoresheep · 17/02/2025 09:00

Wander how NC and JR are feeling about the latest updates?

Did Fife tell JR about their latest cunning plan? Which bright spark in Fife came up with it?

Especially as JR herself 'misgendered' the doctor many times at the ET.

CarefulN0w · 17/02/2025 09:03

needmoresheep · 17/02/2025 09:00

Wander how NC and JR are feeling about the latest updates?

Did Fife tell JR about their latest cunning plan? Which bright spark in Fife came up with it?

I predict an eye roll followed by a quiet smile of satisfaction for NC, though she would be concerned for Sandie.

Meanwhile JR is rocking in a corner.

guinnessguzzler · 17/02/2025 09:06

CarefulN0w · 17/02/2025 08:57

I see inauthentic uses "restrooms" on the other thread. @myplace.

Indeed, 'restrooms'. I was going to comment on that thread to that effect but a) really couldn't be arsed and b) decided it was best ignored / grey rocked as all attention seekers are.

anyolddinosaur · 17/02/2025 09:06

JR may have actually advised that to avoid Dr Searle appearing in court and further reputational damage the only option is to settle and throwing out Dr U's claims is the only way to do that. We can hope, although not much sign FIFE has come to it's senses yet.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 17/02/2025 09:07

Where are the Scottish Government? Why has no one said a word about this? Ok there is an ET case but no issues like jury influencing to be wary of

ThatsNotMyTeen · 17/02/2025 09:08

anyolddinosaur · 17/02/2025 08:59

I hope the FIFE board have come to its senses and will do that and are not simply doubling down on we have the power and we will crush you. That's going to increase both damages and legal costs.

Can they do that though when they’ve already nailed their colours to the mast supporting Dr U?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 17/02/2025 09:10

ThatsNotMyTeen · 17/02/2025 09:07

Where are the Scottish Government? Why has no one said a word about this? Ok there is an ET case but no issues like jury influencing to be wary of

I don’t know where the Scottish government are but the local MSP Murdo Fraser has said he’s looking to apply for an urgent question to the First Minister on this

Flip

1 2 ··· 21 22 23 ··· 39 40

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

Join Mumsnet Log In

This thread is not accepting new messages.