NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

When I click that link, I get "this page doesn't exist", what are others seeing?

I think on the contrary, I'll send a postcard. Sandie already knows she has support, she's paying attention! A campaign of cards to the hospital is mostly to show other people she has support. Sure, the cards probably won't survive, but neither did most of the Hogwarts letters...

Read that thread though and someone says they know the person involved, who is not a TWAW type at all.

Did you know that his stepfather is the Bishop of St Andrews and his mum divorced Upton Sr to marry him. She now the Rev Cannon Carrie Applegath and has worked with the NHS locally for 20 yrs. they have lots of influential friends it would seem. Fife is like an island

Now that I really want to watch, we better get the observing function back.

Wait,

Thank you for the plug 🥰, saves me doing it 😁

Did you see the tweet regarding Tunnock's the other day from Katherine Deves when her and Sall Grover were in Scotland?

UTDOD is on the bed with her Tunnock's!

Your poems are read worldwide!

"Fife's KC told the court (and the press) the outcome of the investigation

x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1886736358175089103
JR - the IX found that this was wrong. This could be seen as insinuation that DU posed risks, such as rape. That's what they thought.
SP - that's what they thought
JR - that's what they thought, that you were comparing DU to a dangerous predator
SP - that was not my intention
JR - but that may have been how it was heard
SP - it may have been

x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1886737385762816448

JR - but DU wrote a contemp note, so DU recollection is likely better than yours, SP - i didn't make any notes because I did not expect anything to come from the convo
JR - my point was that DU recollection likely to be better than yours,
SP - it may be
11:23 AM · Feb 4, 2025"

At the point this these exchanges took place, JR & NHS Fife's may well have felt confident that the conclusions in the report were solid. But the claims made - DU's recollection was better as he took notes & the implication SP was comparing DU to the convicted rapist Bryson - have been quite robustly challenged via DU's cross examination & ED's too. The late disclosure & still missing documentation, potentially revealing more that undermines what the report's conclusions have stated. The recommendations based upon evidence that's seemingly glossed over the veracity of DU's note taking or clear recollection of what was said by SP are on shaky ground IMO.

The decision to go ahead with this is just utterly bizarre & on a vindictive level of incompetence. Someone with sense would have hit the pause button & let this slide until after the conclusion of the 2nd round of the ET. Clearly there's no one working at NHS Fife with even a smidge of sense.

The Telegraph says it was on day 2 of the tribunal, which I think is when Sandie gave evidence. I guess they thought she had admitted to something - of course a lot happened subsequently

I wanna know what the new claim is fell asleep at the wheel and missed a whole thread and a half i blame @Boiledbeetle she put me by the fire in a pub and i was sooo toasty i could not wake up .

Those who can should look at the heat map illustration of this on X or use the Nitter workaround described in OP. Signatories from the West of Scotland are dominating the map.

Have you seen how angry Scottish women are right now?? Most of the #RepealTheGRA signatories on our Parliament petition are in Scotland. Our safety was hard-won. Our Human Rights are not secondary to the whims of deluded/entitled men. Enough

https://x.com/MandyClareTERF/status/1891052149510963217

The person leading the meeting will be a nurse whose background is mental health. Do these people pay any attention to their HR staff or their lawyer? I guess at that stage they thought the tribunal would be over and have gone in their favour - but tribunal often dont issue a decision for months. The only sensible course of action now would be to postpone the meeting until the tribunal reaches a judgement.

If they sack her it's going to be a claim for unfair dismissal and if she decides to leave constructive dismissal. There may not be much call for private nursing, and certainly there are no private a&e departments. Any nursing home should employ her but she's going to want reinstatement.

ETs dont usually award costs but can do so and withholding evidence should lead to costs being awarded for extra work.

Or I wonder if they wanted to pull the rug out from under her as she was about to give evidence, in the hopes it would unsettle her enough that she’d say something daft or fold entirely.

To paraphrase Ben Cooper, “how’s that working out for you, Fife?”

On a Sunday evening, the comments under the Telegraph article have hit over 900 - all as outraged as on here.

If they don't, you could always attend in person.

This Banned

https://archive.ph/XmNMj

Nurse who challenged trans NHS doctor threatened with sack after ‘misgendering’

"Sandie Peggie, who brought a landmark employment tribunal against NHS Fife and Dr Beth Upton, is understood to have been told to attend a conduct hearing on Friday which her employer has warned could lead to her dismissal."

From telegraph below
Meanwhile, Dr Upton claimed Ms Peggie had subjected them to sustained transphobic harassment, including raising the case of Isla Bryson, the Scottish rapist previously known as Adam Graham, who was temporarily housed in a female jail.
Dr Upton has denied seeking to “punish” Ms Peggie or end her career, as “revenge” for the Christmas Eve incident.
Ms Peggie has been told that her conduct hearing will take place at Victoria Hospital’s boardroom with Jillian Torrens, head of complex and critical care services, to ultimately decide her fate with the help of an HR officer and NHS Fife’s head of nursing.
Health board management intend to call Dr Upton as one of four witnesses, with Ms Peggie entitled to call her own.
Final written warning
The nurse has been told she could receive a final written warning, alternatives to dismissal or be fired.

I leave you guys for five minutes for a Sunday night curry with DH and all hell kicks off. Honestly

Another petition 'Map of Anger' I see!

If I had a subscription I'd read all 900 tonight! Probably just as well I don't.

Just come on here after reading latest developments.

WTAF?!

I can’t really articulate any more!

If Upton is giving evidence next week, I wonder if it will be consistent with that given on oath only a few days ago? If yes, it’s hard to see how any sort of sanction could be justified. If no, he’s just perjured himself.

What gets me is the incredulity from all the legal folk on Twitter. What the hell are NHS fife playing at?!?!

Well, yes that could explain why it's only come out now after the adjournment.

But if it did happen on the second day of the tribunal why then? Had Fife decided before the ET hearing started they were going to proceed with the disciplinary hearing but postal/admin delays meant Sandie only received the notice/letter after it started?

Or was it something that came out in evidence on Day 1 or 2? Or something they came across in trawling through everything again after NC complained about non disclosure?

Another fine cartoon from Suffragette:

https://x.com/5uffragette/status/1891231261944938751

Who exactly isn't allowed to have followed the case or commentary on it? Just the individuals called as witnesses? I mean, if everyone at NHS Fife felt unable to follow the case because they collectively are a respondent, they could be imagining it's going their way...but it's not credible, is it?