NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

Sandie won't be able to take her lawyer with her to that hearing will she?

I presume, that like most Disciplinary procedures she will only be entitled to be accompanied by a union representative or a friend. A friend usually being someone else who works within the organisation.

Unless someone knows otherwise?

Oo, I should hope Naomi and Sandie are friends by now...

I wonder if the disciplinary hearing is a device to keep the press photographers safely corralled in the NHS carpark, while Board Members take Upton and the infamous phone on a boat ride?

Anyone else think Margaret gribbon released this to make sure the names of everyone involved at NHS Fife are in the public domain?

There's lots of things Fife Health Board shouldn't have done. But why stop digging a hole when you are this deep?

I'm wondering if they've realised that this is a complete shit show for them.

They suspended SP without a proper investigation, are on the ropes in the Tribunal, and SP won't settle

I wonder if they've decided to hold a proper disciplinary hearing now so they can retrospectively find that SP never did anything wrong and it's all been a sad fuck up.

"Sorry SP. It was all BD's, ED's, IB's and KS's fault.

No harm done

Let's call it quits, eh"

Yes, what I'm suggesting is bonkers, but no more bonkers than the alternative explanation that they are trying to gift her an unfair dismissal claim.

Naomi is, unfortunately, likely to be busy with another case.

I know it's nota brilliant petition but dh was angry enough to sign it - not only women signing up to it.

I guess you have to be a subscriber to comment on the Telegraph so can someone add a petition link there.

Sandie's daughter on X. Seems just as bewildered as we are.

Fucking hell i am totally gobsmacked that NHS FIFE are pushing ahead on a disciplinary hearing in the face of the court.

That in of itself is harassment of a person seeking proper judicial redress.

They are proper and actual loons.

presumably the new application will be about a stay of disciplinary proceedings, a lawyer would help here.

If anyone has a Telegraph subscription and could post a link so we can read the article's comments BTL that would be hugely appreciated (thanks to the people who’ve done this previously)

It doesn't work like that.
A friend means another member of staff usually, in the event of you not being a union member. It doesn't mean your mate from the pub or your lawyer. I'm sure her solicitor will give advice as to what to do or say but I doubt that she will be able to go into the hearing with her.

I don't know what the Disciplinary procedure actually says, would be interested if anyone else does.

It will be horrible for her.

Well the fact is she is guilty because they are manufacturing it. They're looking for any old reason to get rid of the witch, her fate is pre-decided.

It just seems like the tribunal is on shaky legs and they've lost faith they will win it and be able to use the outcome for dismissal so now they're finding anything they can to stick it to her.

Some commentary on the issue.

It seems that conventionally you don't have the right to have a legal representative but you can request it.

Who is legally entitled to attend?

Both workers and employees have the legal right to be accompanied to a disciplinary or grievance hearing. However, in accordance with section 10 of the Employment Relations Act 1999 those rights are limited to being either a trade union representative or a colleague. The right for the individual to be accompanied by either of these two is absolute and regardless of whether their choice is considered to be inappropriate.

Are they entitled to bring a lawyer?

It is not unusual for an individual to ask to attend or be legally represented at a disciplinary or grievance hearing by a lawyer. However, unless there is a contractual agreement there is no legal rights over and above attending with a colleague or trade union representative.
That being said, in limited circumstances the individual may be able to establish a right to legal representation where a failure to allow may impeach on a fair trial, but this is extremely rare and relates to proceedings where an organisation could have the power to prevent someone from practising their profession.

https://amicahr.co.uk/can-i-bring-a-lawyer-employee-rights-at-disciplinary-hearings/

I should think that if SP were to request it, NHS Fife would be extraordinarily unwise to refuse. That said, it's NHS Fife so…

For anyone doubting the stupidity of NHS management:

Many years ago, while working in an un-named NHS organisation, I submitted a valid grievance, which was ignored, in breach of the grievance policy. I got a solicitor to write a letter to the CEO, and suddenly a grievance meeting was scheduled. In the meeting, I was offered a sum of money and told to sign an NDA. I declined. I told my colleagues and we subsequently submitted a collective grievance, which created a massive headache for the arrogant management. While waiting for a response, the sum of money I had declined appeared in my bank account. Presumably they had expected me to sign the NDA, and had already set up the payment! Utter morons, the lot of 'em :)

It's going well for NHS Fife. Out trending the BAFTAs on X.

Has Sandy had any other "conduct hearing"? I'm having a hard time following the hospital's (shambolic) process.

Are they mental?

Why on earth do they think this is a good idea in the middle of an ET where the Trust are already being hauled over the coals?

Free Speech Union rep available?

I hope this uploads this time…

@Szygy Here you go:

https://telegraph.co.uk/gift/b9c7b725debc389b

Over 1000 comments already

IANAL, but off the top of my head reasons why this is utterly insane include:

They have stated as fact in the tribunal things that the investigation hasn't actually concluded yet.

They are including in the investigation hearing things that have been shown in the tribunal to be at best enormously exaggerated - and quite possibly entirely fabricated.

When the issue being investigated is a man in the women's changing room, you have to allow the person being investigated to say in her evidence that there's a man in the women's changing room.

The previous point has just been confirmed by a tribunal judge.

And they have to somehow hold this hearing without anyone involved discussing any part of the tribunal case or evidence.

I'm sure there's more, but most of my brain is currently too busy going 'what the actual fuck?!' to think it through properly.

Rethinking That advice is basically what I am saying, but in shorter version,.
She can make a request for a lawyer to accompany. There is no right to a lawyer. It's a misconduct hearing not a fitness to practise hearing.

I bet it doesn't say she can bring a lawyer in the letter summoning her to the hearing.

Presumably they had to have planned various ways forward, depending on whether they could settle, or whether a violent earthquake would destroy DU's phone and the BMA's server, and so on.

And SP's team will have released the news for maximum impact so that the Fife Board have an exciting Monday morning to look forward to.

But they will have carried on holding crisis talks throughout the hearing. To go ahead knowing what they know now is just bonkers.

un fucking believable

Upthread someone said maybe they are going to exonerate her as mitigation/defence in the tribunal case

I cannot see how that would help them.

As for Sandie i hope that all the light that has been shone, the deep pockets of her supporter can actually empower her enough to … well just well laugh straight in their faces.

And say to them how many pounds do you want to pay me?

I know i would.

I can only assume they thought the Tribunal would be concluded on Friday rather than continued, and had a letter ready to go to Sandy re-starting the disciplinary process next week. And someone who hasn’t been paying attention actually put it in the post …