NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

I feel dreadful for Sandie, she's done nothing wrong and is so brave. I know she knows how much support she's got which must be of some comfort to her. All I can say is this is going to massively backfire on Fife and just increases the publicity for this issue. Bloody idiots!

I'm on it.

How can you describe the problem if you can't call a man a man!

Do we think Margaret Gribbon put this out? She is making sure everything NHS Fife do is in the public domain

Magi Gibson has summed it up well -

'Scotland's been careering towards this kind of insanity for years, thanks to a crazy brand of faux-progressive politics our idiot MSPs bought into wholesale. What a tragedy that it looks like it's NHS that is crashing and burning first. With funds diverted from patient care.'

https://x.com/MagiGibson/status/1891240116867273075

A final thought for the night, this puts all women who work for NHS Scotland firmly back in their box.

Until Sandies case is concluded no other woman will want to come forward with concerns. It's a silencing tactic against every female employee.

Really worrying development.

I keep oscillating between laughing at the ludicrousness, and actual fear at the thought of how much is at stake here. If she loses, and if the Darlington nurses lose, we are all up shit creek. I'm committing thought-crimes right now, and if I let one of them slip out I could actually get arrested. How the fuck did we end up here?

An actual postcard would need to quick a turnaround.

Would an ecard work? Directed to Fife's CEO?

Not that I have the skills anyway.

WTF

They’re whistling into the wind. And making women very cross in the process.

Have a therapy chicken.

Not sure which bit so I will
cover both.

When JR was cross examining SP she took her to the hospital policies and from memory SP had to agree that under the Bullying and Harassment Policy she (SP) had breached the policy.

So under oath SP confirmed she breached the policy which means they can legitimately take disciplinary action. I know the B & H policy may not be lawful/be discriminatory but it is the hospitals policy.

I can’t find the actual exchange on TT as there is a lot to review.

In your post you quoted “Ms Peggie is believed to have been told by NHS Fife on the second day of her employment tribunal that potential outcomes from Friday’s hearing include sanctions up to and including dismissal from her job.”

I was pointing out that it is normal practice to advise an employee called to a disciplinary hearing what the potential sanctions are. So I was not surprised to see dismissal mentioned.

Of course, sometimes it's good to shine a light in dark corners, clean up the stinking mess, stand up to the old guard and manage things properly.

NB: I should have said when I quoted Peter Daly that he is the solicitor who has worked with Ben Cooper KC on several notable tribunals, including Maya Forstater's vs CGD etc.

How much are they willing to bend over backwards for this awful man?!

That’s a feature, not a bug. If you control the language you control everything. Someone at Fife read 1984, but misunderstood and thought it was an instruction manual instead of a warning.

Yes, I'm trying to work out how this story has hit the news today and where it's come from. It clearly hasn't just happened today. Understanding the timing may help in understanding why on earth Fife have done this. Is it only in the wake of all the evidence so far that has gone so badly for them? And the prospect of an order for examination of Upton's phone? Or has it been in the pipeline since the tribunal began?

If it really is about misgendering, then surely Upton should be firing his own fucking lawyer and the judge who both referred to him as HE in the proceedings.

Lets hope that a certain lady with very very deep pockets is willing to match whatever settlement figure NHS Fife offer to Sandie to shut her mouth.
I am almost 100% sure she is on this very forum and knows exactly what is happening.

Wouldn't it be interesting if on Upton's phone are messages from members of the Fife board, encouraging him to go ahead with his complaint and sex it up as much as possible, and they'll make sure it goes his way? That could never happen, could it? Might explain panic right now, though.

@Harassedevictee

Heres the relevant bit from TT

SP - I tried to use preferred pronouns, but it doesn't come naturally to me
JR - you've called DU a man throughout these proceedings, you're making a choice to use these words
SP - its very difficult to call a biological man a woman, it's the gender speak
JR - you find it difficult, you don't want to do it and you don't do it.
SP - I have tried but it doesn't change that DU is a biological man
JR - I'm surprised, throughout these proceedings you have misgendered DU, and instructed your legal team to misgender them. You've chosen
misgender him.
SP - I believe that DU is a man, he wants to use she/her pronouns, I tried to use them, but its difficult.
JR - you're not trying now are you
SP - no, I'm not trying now
JR - looking at this def of harassment your choice to do so, is harassment under this policy
you are the only person guilty of harassment under this policy
SP - yes,

Another loyal employee discovers first hand that the NHS won't love you back.

I'm sure we all cherish, treasure and value any individual assisting SP at what must a very difficult time, yet so so important for all of womankind.

Thank you if you are lurking.

What on earth is wrong with management at Fife NHS? They must surely have been glued to TT for the last two weeks and this is their idea of an appropriate response? I mean seriously? Has a GC mole infiltrated the system and become bent on destroying GI from the inside? Surely come July the glorious NC will simply cite this as more rotten treatment of her client?

This is why it's important for everyone to "misgender" these men at every feasible opportunity. Normalising wrong-sex pronouns has been a disaster.

Well if they (hospital) put 'it' (meeting summons) out on Day 2, just after SP acknowledged that she called DU a man, at that point the hospital might have thought 'Great, we've got her!' and summoned her to this meeting thinking they could quietly finish her off. They thought the whole thing would quietly disappear.
They weren't counting on the vast amount of press and public interest in the questioning of the next witnesses (DU and ED). Of course it was too late then to rescind the summons, so there was nothing they could do about it.