NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

I'm feeling awful for Sandie, but I'm also feeling quite sorry for @nauticant.

Just as she's thinking, ooh I can relax, it will take a while for a thread to fill up now the tribunal is on pause and NHS Fife play this blinder!

Murdo Fraser, MSP, is going to apply for a Topical and First Mininster question on this tomorrow -
https://x.com/murdo_fraser/status/1891230857651736665

I mean we all knew that NHS Fife is an absolute shitshow but this really is extreme.

Am I right in my understanding that this is the same set of issues / allegations as the tribunal relates to? So they suspended her for being honest mean to Dr U, and carried out one or two investigation(s), which they didn't complete, she said she was taking them to tribunal for harassment, they got her back to work, the tribunal started, the tribunal took way longer than anticipated because they and their fantastic lawyer failed to provide all the required information in advance and Dr B took forever to say anything, so now the tribunal is only part way through, and they've decided to pick up on the disciplinary process from before? WTAF?!

Quote from Peter Daly, a lawyer, on Twitter:

'If this story is accurate, it is astonishing. It will cost a six figure sum of public money in legal fees alone. Then damages, board turnover, reputational cost, political risk. The cost is incalculable.

Gender ideology causes institutional madness.'

I have little doubt that similar male (TiM) incursions are happening all over the UK in public and private institutions.

I wonder which is true -

Females are not comfortable with this at all, but say nothing out of fear
Females say they are uncomfortable and complain and are managed out
Females say they are uncomfortable and are sacked
Females say they are uncomfortable and are listened to, but nothing happens
Females are OK with it.

https://x.com/JournalistJill/status/1891227538728354195?t=wKuT6FHr-kO_S9825IGVPw&s=19

Do the losing side in an employment tribunal have to pay the other sides legal cost? Anyone know?

Well

Interesting Twitter response to the story

You have got to be kidding. There are "aggravating factors" and there are "exceptionally aggravating factors". If true, this clearly falls into the latter category. What on earth does NHS Fife think it is doing? I previously used the word "inept". Does not remotely come close.
…
Provided the matters in issue in the internal proceedings are the same or in some way affected by matters that have been placed before a court/tribunal, any sensible organisation would pause its internal procedures until the court or tribunal has ruled & made factual findings.

https://x.com/QcWynter/status/1891217641647341686

I can't make head nor tale of this action. Unless NHS Fife believes it has a smoking gun/cadre of witnesses that didn't form part of the tribunal response?

ETA: Susan Dalgety

So-called progressives and the left are quick to denigrate people who voted for Trump in the USA and the folk here thinking about supporting Reform. I detest both Trump and Farage, but when we end up with the grotesque spectacle of an NHS board hounding a nurse for daring to call a male doctor ‘he’, safe in the knowledge that the majority of Scotland’s political class have also bought into the lie that humans can change their sex, is it any wonder voters have had enough of the mediocre people in charge. Our kids can’t afford to leave home; public services are on their knees; businesses are struggling; our high streets dying. Social care is broken; the economy stagnant, but hey, look over there, a woman dared to call a man in a frock a man. “Burn the witch” scream the progressives. Our politics are broken.

https://x.com/DalgetySusan/status/1891232793486819812

I hope that she takes Helen Joyce along as her "support Irish setter"

Whatever the rights and wrongs of calling Dr Upton a man to his face, which is sort of sub judice, is not expressing a belief that he is a man in private to a third party not expressing a protected belief?

Not usually, in England at least, but if one side's conduct is poor they can be made to.
(edit typo)

But why would they keep evidence out of the employment tribunal if it backed up their case??

This is an insane move, poor Sandie!

Someone at NHS Fife said. "I'm so fed up of this shit, how can I ensure this stays in the media this week and peaks the rest of the country? I know if I get her sacked, it'll make us look nuts".

I swear in 2029 when Farage is PM, I will be sat rocking in a corner screaming at the top of my voice "I fucking told you so" and these idiots will still be saying that it can't be real and the election was 100% rigged and still saying they are persecuted little flowers.

Crikey, I log off to go have dinner and all hell breaks loose!

Have just read the last 40-odd posts and have been spilling WTAFs all over the kitchen!

Is this some weird upside-down ploy of NHSFife to peak the world?

😳

Fife NHS is already a respondent. I doubt it would allow the board to be added as a respondent, but it allows SP to add unfair dismissal to her claims against the NHS.

Given the repeated process failures that have been exposed in this tribunal, I struggle to understand why they are doing this. It is, of course, possible they think they are winning so can complete the humiliation of this inconvenient nurse - after all, many TRAs seem convinced the case is going well. But I doubt the panel will be impressed by a move that appears to pre-empt their decision.

Yes, the losing side has to pay the other side's costs. Also, if the losing party has behaved particularly badly during litigation (such as not following orders, or additionally victimising the claimant) they can be forced to pay aggravated damages which can be very high indeed.

Are NHS Fife (HR)
1)Seriously incompetent
2)Seriously malignly misogynist
3)Secretly terven bent on peaking the world
4)Some bizarre combination of the above

Answers on a postcard

I'm confused...
Where do the rules come in about what they can and can't refer to from in court? How can Friday happen without referring to any of it?
Sandie saw BU and ED's evidence which amounted to there was no evidence of any danger to patients, but can't refer to any of it?

Edited to add, I was incorrect - in employment tribunal costs are not automatic but only at the judge's discretion. But if conduct has been bad the judge can decide to impose costs.

I've seen a few legal types talk about aggravated damages should Sandie win as a result of this latest move.

Oh my God, I can barely believe what I've just read.

Misgendering isn't a crime. The judge sanctioned everyone to be able to do it. Sandie didn't even do it to Upton, she did it to a third-party!!

She actually did it to 'investigators', who are investigating the specific issue of a man in the women's changing room.

And as for the patient safety incidents. Which patients? Which shift? When?

Nobody knows!!

There must be more behind this. There has to be some mad fucking infiltration on the board of NHS Fife. See also TRAs jumping up and down trying to go after the Scottish Express.

In which case, it honestly wouldn't surprise me if they did fire her. There you go, bitch.

And she'll then be suing them for unfair dismissal!

Unless the judge is a hopeless TRA, surely, this is going to make him think, right, we'll have every bit of bloody paper, every phone call, we'll get the BMA down here, we'll have your inside leg measurement if necessary.

Transactivism is watching every single fucking wheel come off and roll down the hill.

Desperate times call for desperate measures, eh? And the right side of history isn't going to populate itself.

Thanks for clarifying about legal costs @WeeBisom @TriesNotToBeCynical

1. Definitely 4.

Mainly because 1 to 3 sound like logical explanations and we have long since passed the point of this being rational.