NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

I've only just caught up with today - or thought I had - but has ED said in evidence today that she suspended SP contrary to advice from her own HR dept?

Has that come out today?

Or have I misunderstood?

NHS Scotland may have model policies that HA adopt. The board would ultimately be responsible for policy, usually on advice from CEO.

At the time of the complaint Upton was a junior doctor on rotations - did psychiatry, a&e then anaesthetics. There will have been more but those 3 were mentioned. He now seems to be in a clinical fellow post. That will be 6 months or a year and can be renewed but FIFE may not wish to do that. He will be free to apply for other posts for which he has relevant experience.

A date in December was given for the missing child, but someone else who was present (possibly health care assistant) said that Sandie spoke to Beth, he said she didnt.

The patient where she was claimed to have asked him to do obs was NOT a child but an adult with breathing difficulties. Sandie thought he meant snickers kid as the only time she remembered him being present for a patient with breathing problems, he said not that one and couldnt give a date. NC may try and use shift patterns to prove no patient matched that description when they were on shift together.

NC has not got - and may not get - permission to arrange analysis of the phone.

@Jamieandhismagictorch · Today 16:03

Briefly delurking - I am an old timer, though no longer posting. I used to be very active as JoMarch in other places. There must be thousands, like me, gaining information and support from you lot and please be assured that I for one act on what I find out, here in the real world. So thank you! This ET has been extraordinary. Quite extraordinary - even for those of us in this fight for many years. Has not been good for my nerves, which are pretty shot anyway through the effects of trans activism on me personally.
Feck. Forgot to say the most important thing. Brava Sandie!

OMG, JoMarch!!! I'm so glad you're on Mumsnet.

Your comments under The Times articles peaked every bloody Times reader.

Always polite, always rational, knowledgeable, easy to read, and so, so, irrefutable, every single time.

They were a pleasure to read, and a real education.

So very many unsung heroes in this battle, but JoMarch, you're right up there.

thank you.

Sandie was suspended before anyone from HR was involved. They were querying why it had happened in the context of whether it was justified and they could continue it. One HR person thought it was "ludicrous", one person in HR was trying to suggest how they could make it look justified.

Also, bloody hell, The Lurkers!!

I've missed out on so much today, I've had to skim and every other post is someone delurking.

It's indescribably reassuring to hear you all chipping in. Seriously.

fabulous stuff.

Michael Foran on Times Radio from this morning.

Does anyone know when the full hearing for the Darlington nurses is due? There was a hearing where the individual respondent demanded anonymity (sounds familiar?) in late January, but judgment has so far been reserved.

On another note, Bruno Quintavalle, their barrister, was a co-founder of the Pro-Life Alliance. I'm sure that's going to cause a lot of gotcha comments from the other side, but it just underlines that not everybody on a particular side of this argument shares the same world view.

I was thinking about the barristers who take these sorts of cases. Ben Cooper is a KC, obviously, but recent tribunal cases NC has been much more prominent. Akua Reindorf is another KC - she acted for James Esses and wrote the Essex Uni report on their deplatforming scandal. Bruno Q is a new name to me.

And lastly, the phone!

Masterstroke by Naomi Cunningham.

It's unlikely that she'll get that. But if she does, oh dear Lord. The most probable scenario is the dog eats it, or he dropped it overboard, or his wife mistook it for a pop tart and microwaved it.

Which will tell you everything you need to know.

Failing that, he's on a deleting frenzy, which he'll get wrong, and like every other bloody stage, NC will notice a reference to something that's unaccountably gone missing.

God, I hope she gets it 😁

Worth pointing out that the phone search order is not a done deal. The claimant has to make an application to the judge who decides if it’s justified. He’ll decide in a few weeks.

Not really - because the whole thing was a nothingburger.
Read DU's evidence on TT. I think it was even with JR his own barrister.
He went through the events and completely downplayed them - presumably realising that baseless professional conduct allegations would be devastating for his career and realising that there was no actual evidence for the claims made

how many other Sandies are there elsewhere in the NHS in Scotland who’ve just put up with this shit out of fear of being made out to be the one in the wrong?

find it hard to believe it’s just Fife up to their necks in this total batshittery

This.

If you can't do the high paid job that can decide the careers of others that you are employed to do properly, go find a minimum wage job without the skill set and responsibility level.

How many Sandie's just lost their jobs?

At the end of the session I think they agreed a time to meet to discuss next steps/orders etc. One of those things was to be a formal request for DU's phone - we will need to wait to hear if that request is granted

Well, yeah, the universities are churning them out, after all. Both implicitly and explicitly, IYSWIM.

Something's happening on 15 April, IIRC - the first date when all the lawyers were free, but only for that one day.

His legal team plan to apply for an order that his phone be forensically examined. They’ll need to convince the judge.

Woah I'm really far behind again. Think I managed to catch the end of the tribunal today though but not been able to catch up on everyone's thoughts afterwards.

Gutted we will be waiting till July now.

@Jamieandhismagictorch following your note in the last thread, I used to read and agree with your posts on The Times as JoMarch, commented regularly myself. Then they took anonymity away and I have an unusual name and now I just like all the pro reality (women are women) comments and I don't post anything.
Good to read you are well but if you are facing stress from TRA that's not great!

I hear the police are pretty good at understanding DNA. Maybe a local officer could pop into court to carry out a cheek swab on DU.......

Someone on Twitter said the same pay band as Nurse Peggie.

I think he's right and the law is clear.

Under the Workplace Regulations 1992 all employers must provide separate changing rooms for men and women.

When those regulations were drafted they clearly were meant to refer to sex - ie what we now call biological men and biological women.

Gender was a word that referred only to whether words in a language were masculine or feminine, or was a euphemism for sex preferred by prudes and by Amaericans

I hope NC gets the phone analysed. Upton made a lot out of his 'contemporaneous notes' which were on his phone. That was his evidence and the court hasn't seen it. Given Upton has made so much of it as a basis for his allegations, they should see it - or I hope that's what they'll decide. It will help them to determine how much weight to give his evidence.

Who even knows if the notes exist. Someone who can fabricate being the opposite sex can frankly fabricate and 'identify into' anything.

In terms of the DEI jobs - I wonder how many patients have died as a result of lack of frontline HCP staff that could have been saved if the money put into DEI across the whole NHS had been put into frontline staffing? An interesting analysis to try and look at for any academic with balls / ovaries.

And these sorts of jobs are why i don't think the NHS problems are just about money. IB's clearly gave duff advice according to HR and the law in this case. Two junior nurses could have been employed (at least) on her salary. What a bloody waste of taxpayers money - why are people like me paying into this just so i can be discriminated against and denied single sex care by the likes of Upton?

Thank you to you all for being so amazing - knowledgeable, humorous, attentive and all round good eggs. And especially to Sandie for standing up for women: go girl! And an honorary mention to Naomi; what an awesome intellect and what incredible stamina. (And yes she should be a KC but she doesn’t play the game.)

My question for the mumsnet collective: I am going to write to my MP who is Keir Starmer about this. (As an aside I think it is more effective to write to your MP as they are dependent on your votes whereas a minister like Wes Streeting isn’t unless he’s your MP) and I want to write something pithy but I can’t decide whether to go for

“this is why the Equality act needs to be clarified that women means women for all time and doesn’t include “the new women” (as Ricky Gervais would say)”

or make it more constituency specific “please can you get the Royal Free to confirm that if I ask for a female HCP I will get one because Dr Upton says I will be classified as aggressive and could lose access to medical treatment if he turns up and I call him a man, and so I can’t ask myself.”

Any advice/thoughts?

(It makes me very cross that Labour politicians claimed at the last election that “no one raises this on the doorstep”; let’s all write to our MPs make sure that no MP can make this claim at the next election.)

And just wanted to add an anecdote. My 16 year old DC had one of those EDI groups come in to school and give a presentation, and one of his fellow pupils asked “how can you say that as you don’t even know what a woman is?” How fabulous is that?! Apparently said child’s mother is “a shit hot lawyer”. Well done that woman!!!!! I’m only sorry that it wasn’t my DC asking that question. The younger generation are not lost. They know this is all bullshit.

Onwards and upwards!

I’ve only gone and missed another entire thread 🤦‍♀️

However, highlights of today: DARVO being invoked in the tribunal
Many lurkers de-lurking
And JO MARCH making a special appearance ❤️

Marvellous stuff from everyone and massive thanks to @nauticant and @ickky

(Am I the only one who had The Beautiful South's 'Song for Whoever' running through my head when ED was on the stand?
🎶 Katherine, Jacqueline, Angela too, Gillian, Isla and Beth….🎶)