NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

I bloody love when the lurkers give us waves

Hi (waves) Quick precis, I only came upon this thread because it was trending.
I almost wish I hadn't (not really) because - a. I've been glued and b. consequently there has been no work done hereabouts for several days.

I'm not a stranger to transwomen. Not even in my sheltered little life as a 60+
year old woman living in a rural town. I have a disabled son in supported living. One of his support staff is very obviously a transwoman. S/he is not in a hands on position, but is in daytime charge of the running of the house, allocating shifts, dealing with emergencies (which with autistic adults can come thick and fast or not at all. Depends which way out they are that day).

I know s/he is a man. It is really very obvious. Like the elephant in the room.
Yet for the 10+ years I've known . . .them? it has never ever been mentioned
by any other carers or management. But - it's obvious.
S/he runs the place well and I have confidence in this person.
It has never come up in 10 years that I've had to call them he or she.
I just use their name which could anyway be 'assigned' to either sex.

As a 60+ woman, I also do volunteer till work in a charity shop. One regular
customer comes in summer and winter in frilly cotton frocks with bows in his hair, badly applied lipstick and a wicker basket over his arm. That's his thing maybe. Does he think he's a woman? Does he just want to present as a woman? How do I know? I'm just as friendly and polite to him (or her) as I would be to anyone else. I don't really care either way to be honest. So long as s/he goes away happy with their purchase and I've passed a pleasant time of day with them. That's most of the pleasure of working in a charity shop. Talking to people who are not just rushing in and out for a pint of milk. If you go into a charity shop you are browsing with no purchase in mind. At leisure. So people are in more of mood to chat and pass the time of day. That's my reward.
I love it.

In a charity shop nearby, there is a till assistant who presents as a woman,
but is obviously a man. Male pattern baldness , his height, and , well, just everything. Again, it's really obvious and I wish I knew if any of these men think that because nobody comments mean that they are passing as a woman!

So even in a small country town we older ladies come across this thing called trans. But it doesn't really bother us, we nod and smile.

Until we see the toxicity of Dr Upton. Then we get mad.

I’m trying to catch up on the threads in Australia- I was asleep as the live tweeting happened.

Am I correct in reading that Dr Upton has to hand over his phone? If so, what are the chances that he accidentally drops in into the North Sea, Vardy manager style? I may have misread this- trying to catch up after the event is tricky!

So if ED suspended against HR advice, and ends up with a ruling which states she's in breach of trust policy and employment law that costs their employer ££££...

...would that be grounds for sacking for gross misconduct?

Wow, just finished catching up after a long day at work. Had a quick look at the thread at lunch, just as NC was bringing up DARVO. I did a silent cheer!

Was thinking like some others that maybe access to Upton's phone won't be granted and too intrusive. Then I remembered - someone correct me if I'm wrong - that SP's text messages between her and a colleague/friend were brought up earlier in the tribunal, the friend who told her Upton was using the women's changing room and she didn't believe him/her and thought he/she was joking?
Edited as unsure of sex of friend, I think called Chris.

There's really no evidence that she ever did fail to record such a thing. In fact I'm not sure even the other side have suggested it, have they?

But it shouldn't have depended on anyone's recall. My elderly parents both had the assistance of carers in their last years at home. Every single visit was written up - if they needed creams or dressings, had an infection, had seen a doctor overnight - anything different, it was written down and initialled by the carers present. If anything had gone wrong and there needed to be an investigation, the notes were all there, neatly filed in chronological order, no guesswork or memories needed.

Surely A&E in Fife was as good at record keeping as my spare bedrooms.

I’ve just read this on Twitter and can’t find the source of the info so assuming it’s made up. Came here to see if anyone knows more.

Fuck me, thread 19!!!!
I haven't followed the threads much, I'm sure this will have come up though, perhaps someone can answer.
If Dr Upton wins, basically the law is saying Dr Upton is a woman and can access the female changing room. Does this mean if a female patient wants to be examined by a female doctor, will Dr Upton be sent in to examine her? And what happens if she refuses?

Yep his phone has been asked to be forensic analysis

This is a separate event.

Snickers child Sandie pinpoints to Halloween as she recalled it was from a Halloween sweet.

The missing child is one that was triaged by Sandie as very low priority and so they decided not to wait (and presumably follow up with GP instead). Fairy common occurrence.

Edited to add Upton could not narrow down the timeframe and wasn't sure this potentially serious incident (where she asked him to do the OBS) was the same child. Nor could he narrow down the timeframe to less than two months so the views of other people there could be properly sought.

Both sides call people they want to be witnesses. It is very rare in civil cases (like employment tribunals) for the tribunal itself to compel a witness to appear.

For example, in the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre case, the ERCC didn't call Mridul Wadhwa. The claimant would have loved to cross examine him but couldn't as he wasn't called as a witness. Presumably either the claimant didn't ask the Tribunal to compel him or the Tribunal decided not to.

Sometimes someone gives a witness statement and nothing is contested by the other side, so that person doesn't have to give oral evidence.

If someone gives a witness statement but doesn't come to give oral evidence, the tribunal will place less evidence on that witness statement.

In the case of everyone called as a witness by Fife, if they are still employed by Fife then unless they are on sick leave it will be their employer, as well as the tribunal who will expect them to appear.

But how do we know this to be the case? Has the judge ordered it? Is there a link?

I missed this moment if it was in the hearing today!

You're getting the cases muddled. The child with anaphylaxis wasn't relevant except as a means to date a relevant incident. Sandie said she and Upton worked together fine on that child's case, but Upton couldn't remember her being present. IIRC Sandie said one of the incidents Upton cites as being evidence of her poor practice was on the same shift, but he was unable to confirm that as he clearly hasn't taken notes!

Yep you have to look back. He is r2 and NC has asked for it to be forensic analysis

I wish the media in the rUK did as much coverage as Scottish media, although I know its a Scottish case. We need as much attention on this nonsense as possible to get real change.

Well yes, they've been 'remembering' or 'not remembering' it. There must , surely, be records. Or it is a scandal, and not one of SP's or even BU's making.

NC said she would be asking for it as the end of today during all the prep and dates stuff for the adjournment.

So he hadn't taken notes. Seems like massive professional misconduct.

At this point, can anyone say if there any more clarity whether employers must allow the use of changing and other same sex spaces based on gender ID, GRC or otherwise? Is it legal?

@Jamieandhismagictorch

Yes, I remember you as JoMarsh going into battle in the Times comment section - this at a time when it was a lot more difficult to do,so. 👏

The one who insists it happened is Upton. Conveniently, he can't date the incident. So it's not possible to look at the records of the date in question and see what happened. (Or am I confused? He couldn't date the resus incident. Could he date the missing patient incident? I forget... I don't think we had a date, or convincing evidence of the existence, of either event, but I could be wrong.)

Yes NC has asked but that doesn’t mean anything until the judges make an order or amend the current order. JR has also asked for the order to be amended hasn’t she? I thought perhaps the judges had come back with a decision.

I have made it to the end of the megathreads - all hail the thread and tweet organisers.

One comment about DU. Lots of speculation about why as a junior doc he was just in one hospital etc. It said somewhere he was in a 'clinical fellow' post - i've never worked in nhs scotland, but in england this can be a post-foundation, fixed term hospital post, usually employed by one hospital. It's basically a job for a junior doctor designed by the hospital for their needs with an element of training for a doctor at an early stage of career. So he could easily have spent 6 months, a year, 2 years in one hospital, even one department, as a 'junior', depending how the job was designed without need to find another odd reason.

Yes. It seems he took detailed notes of any purported transobia, but none on the purported patient safety issues. Oddly