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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:06

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

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15
littlbrowndog · 14/02/2025 21:22

Signalbox · 14/02/2025 21:21

Yes NC has asked but that doesn’t mean anything until the judges make an order or amend the current order. JR has also asked for the order to be amended hasn’t she? I thought perhaps the judges had come back with a decision.

Edited

Ta signal box

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 14/02/2025 21:23

fanOfBen · 14/02/2025 21:19

The one who insists it happened is Upton. Conveniently, he can't date the incident. So it's not possible to look at the records of the date in question and see what happened. (Or am I confused? He couldn't date the resus incident. Could he date the missing patient incident? I forget... I don't think we had a date, or convincing evidence of the existence, of either event, but I could be wrong.)

Edited

That's about my recollection of it all too.

DeanElderberry · 14/02/2025 21:23

Edited to add Upton could not narrow down the timeframe and wasn't sure this potentially serious incident (where she asked him to do the OBS) was the same child. Nor could he narrow down the timeframe to less than two months so the views of other people there could be properly sought.

Suggests BU was being dangerously careless with note-taking and patient records. Was everyone concentrating so hard on the identity issue that they were forgetting about the doing the job bit?

fanOfBen · 14/02/2025 21:24

OMG you couldn't make it up.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19
Cismyfatarse · 14/02/2025 21:24

‘Ludicrous’ to suspend NHS nurse over trans doctor row, said HR officer

www.thetimes.com/article/ca4c3c09-1e32-4aa2-b9e2-466010275a8e?shareToken=f0bb530bf8382da3a0c1fa5f1665cac7

Petesplumbing · 14/02/2025 21:24

Along with investigating DU’s phone, did the judge say at the end that it might be necessary to find out what sex DU is?

I’ve been pondering this while milking the cows (great time for thinking). Who would the tribunal consider to be qualified to make that call? A startling amount of highly qualified medical people - who you’d think should have a good grasp on this - seem unable to get into the nitty gritty of the matter.

CarefulN0w · 14/02/2025 21:24

I've been itching for a few threads to comment on the "obs recording" on the child with an allergic reaction to a snickers sweet.

My understanding is that Dr U had gone into the resuss area to clerk the child. Clerking refers to an assessment done by (usually junior) Drs, most often as part of patient's admission process. It is a systematic process, considering a patients medical, family and social history, past medical problems, medicines prescribed etc etc. the Dr would also physically examine the patient to consider any issues with major organs and bodily processes. Clerking is usually completed once the patient is stable, even if they need admitting and ongoing monitoring.

Observations usually refer to temperature, pulse, respirations and blood pressure. P, R and BP would not usually be recorded during active CPR due to the absence of breathing & circulation, although temp may be if the pt is hypothermic.

If the child needed clerking and was ready to have their obs checked, they may have been being treated in the area known as resuss, but they were not being resuscitated. In my view It is preposterous to suggest that there was a patient safety concern. But it sounds very much like a Dr didn't like being told what to do by a nurse/woman problem.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 14/02/2025 21:25

fanOfBen · 14/02/2025 21:24

OMG you couldn't make it up.

Hahahaha

DeanElderberry · 14/02/2025 21:27

So Upton did not think that showing themself up as carelessly lax about patient care was important, compared with showing SP up as being aware of her own legal rights? Which Upton viewed as 'transphobic'?

And the hospital thought that dirty laundry should be washed in public?

mrshoho · 14/02/2025 21:29

SameyMcNameChange · 14/02/2025 21:15

Both sides call people they want to be witnesses. It is very rare in civil cases (like employment tribunals) for the tribunal itself to compel a witness to appear.

For example, in the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre case, the ERCC didn't call Mridul Wadhwa. The claimant would have loved to cross examine him but couldn't as he wasn't called as a witness. Presumably either the claimant didn't ask the Tribunal to compel him or the Tribunal decided not to.

Sometimes someone gives a witness statement and nothing is contested by the other side, so that person doesn't have to give oral evidence.

If someone gives a witness statement but doesn't come to give oral evidence, the tribunal will place less evidence on that witness statement.

In the case of everyone called as a witness by Fife, if they are still employed by Fife then unless they are on sick leave it will be their employer, as well as the tribunal who will expect them to appear.

Many thanks @SameyMcNameChange . I work in education and realise how easily I could end up in this position.

NImumconfused · 14/02/2025 21:30

DeanElderberry · 14/02/2025 21:12

But it shouldn't have depended on anyone's recall. My elderly parents both had the assistance of carers in their last years at home. Every single visit was written up - if they needed creams or dressings, had an infection, had seen a doctor overnight - anything different, it was written down and initialled by the carers present. If anything had gone wrong and there needed to be an investigation, the notes were all there, neatly filed in chronological order, no guesswork or memories needed.

Surely A&E in Fife was as good at record keeping as my spare bedrooms.

The issue is with DU recording stuff in his phone notes not the hospital records. It is being alleged that DU is being deliberately vague about when the patient safety incidents happened because that means no-one can try to check up or corroborate Sandie's account. I don't think anyone is suggesting the hospital doesn't have records.

DeanElderberry · 14/02/2025 21:31

CarefulN0w · 14/02/2025 21:24

I've been itching for a few threads to comment on the "obs recording" on the child with an allergic reaction to a snickers sweet.

My understanding is that Dr U had gone into the resuss area to clerk the child. Clerking refers to an assessment done by (usually junior) Drs, most often as part of patient's admission process. It is a systematic process, considering a patients medical, family and social history, past medical problems, medicines prescribed etc etc. the Dr would also physically examine the patient to consider any issues with major organs and bodily processes. Clerking is usually completed once the patient is stable, even if they need admitting and ongoing monitoring.

Observations usually refer to temperature, pulse, respirations and blood pressure. P, R and BP would not usually be recorded during active CPR due to the absence of breathing & circulation, although temp may be if the pt is hypothermic.

If the child needed clerking and was ready to have their obs checked, they may have been being treated in the area known as resuss, but they were not being resuscitated. In my view It is preposterous to suggest that there was a patient safety concern. But it sounds very much like a Dr didn't like being told what to do by a nurse/woman problem.

@CarefulN0w would that be recorded on paper or online? Presumably something is needed beyond a distracted and busy doctor simply wafting past.

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 14/02/2025 21:32

is Isla Bumba being called as a witness?

I kind of feel sorry for her - she's too young, a product of a woke education system, recruited into a role she has no qualifications or experience in, in a captured public sector, in a country run by an incompetent SNP government.

As someone who used to work in the public sector, young inexperienced DEI 'professionals' are really common. It seems to be the common entry job for graduates. No one in the Scottish public sector should be surprised by this.

myplace · 14/02/2025 21:32

Dammit. Thought it was odd you’d all stopped talking. Missed a whole thread!

Thelnebriati · 14/02/2025 21:34

How did this ever get to tribunal? A workplace has to offer single sex toilets, changing and showers. Its the law.

fanOfBen · 14/02/2025 21:34

With a quick look I can't actually see any sign that Upton really is donating his crowdfunder to charity. Own up, which of you invented this idea just to bounce him into doing so?

FiveBarGate · 14/02/2025 21:35

Petesplumbing · 14/02/2025 21:24

Along with investigating DU’s phone, did the judge say at the end that it might be necessary to find out what sex DU is?

I’ve been pondering this while milking the cows (great time for thinking). Who would the tribunal consider to be qualified to make that call? A startling amount of highly qualified medical people - who you’d think should have a good grasp on this - seem unable to get into the nitty gritty of the matter.

Are they male or female cows?

Perhaps those who think sex is a nebulous dog whistle will volunteer to go and test the bulls as there's no obvious way to check.

Sorry.... couldn't resist 🤣

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 14/02/2025 21:36

Sorry if a repeat post but Wowzer!

Nobody showed diligence, competence or attention to the plight of an experienced nurse, the mainstay of the medical profession. I think their heads will roll behind Mr Make-Believe Make-it-Up Anyway.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/jk-rowling-backs-call-entire-34680018.amp

SameyMcNameChange · 14/02/2025 21:38

Re the sex of Dr Upton and whether that might need to be a fact to be found, I had thought that it was an agreed fact that he was legally and biologically male, but I might be wrong on that.

I think the judge may well specifically ask if this is something the sides agree on or not.

It will put JR in quite a difficult position, I would have thought, if she has to say 'I am instructed that my client is a biological female'.

And potentially R1 and R2 may disagree on whether he is or not.

Stitchmarker · 14/02/2025 21:39

Anyone know what kind of salary NHS DEI leads earn?

Porkproducts · 14/02/2025 21:39

Sorry if I'm behind but I've just seen a comment on the DT article by a Graham Hall saying:

There’s another employment case in involving a Ms E Upton against a medical company which he/she lost(2020) but the judgement discloses no detail. Upton was formerly named Theodore.

So there's potentially been a previous Upton case? Anyone know anything about this?

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 14/02/2025 21:39

Thelnebriati · 14/02/2025 21:34

How did this ever get to tribunal? A workplace has to offer single sex toilets, changing and showers. Its the law.

Upton claimed to be a woman, the normal thing blokes do when using women’s changing rooms.

CarefulN0w · 14/02/2025 21:39

@DeanElderberry - pt obs and clerking are always recorded in the pts notes. The concept of "if it's not recorded it didn't happen" is heavily drilled into HCP. Which I can see is quite ironic given DU's phone notes about which Peggie.

It's just so frustrating to read that there was a safety issue, when the circumstances don't indicate a poorly child at all.

cathyandclaire · 14/02/2025 21:40

CarefulN0w · 14/02/2025 21:24

I've been itching for a few threads to comment on the "obs recording" on the child with an allergic reaction to a snickers sweet.

My understanding is that Dr U had gone into the resuss area to clerk the child. Clerking refers to an assessment done by (usually junior) Drs, most often as part of patient's admission process. It is a systematic process, considering a patients medical, family and social history, past medical problems, medicines prescribed etc etc. the Dr would also physically examine the patient to consider any issues with major organs and bodily processes. Clerking is usually completed once the patient is stable, even if they need admitting and ongoing monitoring.

Observations usually refer to temperature, pulse, respirations and blood pressure. P, R and BP would not usually be recorded during active CPR due to the absence of breathing & circulation, although temp may be if the pt is hypothermic.

If the child needed clerking and was ready to have their obs checked, they may have been being treated in the area known as resuss, but they were not being resuscitated. In my view It is preposterous to suggest that there was a patient safety concern. But it sounds very much like a Dr didn't like being told what to do by a nurse/woman problem.

This!
When I was a casualty junior doctor, it wasn't at all unusual for busy nursing staff to ask me to do the obs, especially when clerking someone who was not in imminent danger.

DeanElderberry · 14/02/2025 21:44

CarefulN0w · 14/02/2025 21:39

@DeanElderberry - pt obs and clerking are always recorded in the pts notes. The concept of "if it's not recorded it didn't happen" is heavily drilled into HCP. Which I can see is quite ironic given DU's phone notes about which Peggie.

It's just so frustrating to read that there was a safety issue, when the circumstances don't indicate a poorly child at all.

Yes. That has always been my impression here - I lived through a lot of HC stuff over the last decade.

I get the sense that for BU and JR playing fast and loose with the core function of the hospital, the care of the patents, came second to tickling Upton's ego. As I said before, scandalous, even before the huge cost in time and money.

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