NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

Radio Forth have announced that the tribunal has been 'postponed til July' to allow forensic analysis of Dr Upton's phone. Surely an employment tribunal lacks the power to ask for a person's phone?

Well quite.

Which is why i've queried in a previous post why I've never seen a claimant in one of these tribunals adduce expert scientific/medical evidence that (1) sex is real; (2) there are only two sexes; and (3) sex can't be changed.

Continuation thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

There are comps and comps. Guess which was DU's and which was SP's.
https://x.com/LucyHunterB/status/1889654733951865041

There may be an application from NC for this. However, it is uncertain whether it would be granted.

I’d bet my house on this. Save your post somewhere so you can say ‘I told you so’.

It's sad how even then, decades ago, we knew it was all about stereotypes and nothing else.

Also delurking with thanks to @nauticant and @ickky and also those adding such humorous, salient, literary and accurate commentary - through this thread, I requested access and watched the few days online before access was taken away, then followed along with the tweets and commentary here.. having had not much awareness of this I have flagged this case to everyone I have come across and used your eloquent posts to pull others to Sandie’s cause. Have also been in awe of NC’s skill.

When did the NHS start pandering to it?

Another retired doctor I know was interviewed for a psychiatry post many moons ago. She didn't take the job because the doctors on the interview panel were mad as a box of frogs. Those doctors went on to set up the Tavistock Clinic.

It would need Scottish govt to allow them ot concede that TW are not W. This seems to me unlikely.

In that I feel a bit sorry for KS as she's been lumped on at the last minute and even if she is found guilty of a claim, surely it can't be as great as what we've heard from DU/NHS Fife?

The content of KS' "intemperate" email and the handling suggest more than a touch of drama llama | flying monkey. The content was certainly ill-judged for someone of her level of seniority and indicated that she had no interest in checking what SP's perspective was before (effectively) traducing SP based soley on the distraught account to which she'd lent an ear (and support for the Datix).

It will be interesting if KS is introduced as a respondent rather than witness. KS must have extensive documents and references to policy documents and consultations to back up her actions. If not - my above paragraph stands.

Minnie the Minx has a statue too. Maybe she's a better choice for the suffragette colours? She's firing a catapult at Desparate Dan - seems apt. (But also flippin' typical as she should have been honoured in her own right, not playing second fiddle to a big bloke)

I have some good news about lemmings:

https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.viewarticle&articlesid=56

The lemmings supposedly committing mass suicide by leaping into the ocean were actually thrown off a cliff by the Disney filmmakers.

It seems that some people just love to spread myths about suicidality.

Sandi needs to have it clearly accepted by the tribunal that the "concerns about patient safety" lack any credibility. That is the only way she'd avoid the NMC getting involved. Dr U has tried to backtrack a bit on that, suggesting the resus incident may have been a communication issue. For the case to be settled out of court he'd also have to admit the "missing patient" was no threat to patient safety.

I dont believe this will necessarily end Upton's career - he was young, his supervisor encouraged him to do a datix. He has really dropped Dr Searle in it but again she could probably get away with a period of reflection on what she did wrong and committing to training on employment law. In a captured NHS the only one whose career is really at stake was Sandie's.

until recently I’d have thought that was within judicial knowledge but now, god knows

FIFE seems to have a lot of lenmmings.

"A kind of compulsion seizes each tiny rodent and, carried along by an unreasoning hysteria, each falls into step for a march that will take them to a strange destiny."

Isn't Dundee the home of Dennis the Menace?

I've just been wimsplaining to dh how Dundee is the new Edinburgh. A wee gem we have yet to visit. I've recommended mid to end of July as the ideal time for the glorious sunsets!

It is. D.C.Thomson comics… The Beano, The Dandy …

I've just been having to take regular breaks and been wandering round the house half mumbling and half shouting 'all this fucking time and effort and money because a woman said 'no' to a man who shouldn't have even been in there' over and over and I'm utterly exhausted.

So many contradictions I wouldn't know where to start at summarising them.

And another 11 days? All because a woman said 'you shouldnt be here'.

<wanders off to mumble and shout again>

Fife have absolutely ballsed this up.

They have made every mistake possible to make - so to me this "begs the question" - were they trying to achieve the impossible? -Trying to prove that the deluded (but I'm sure entirely sincere) mindset of a man wanting to be his idea of a woman is able to co- exist alongside the reality of a biological woman who wants a female only changing space.

Fife are screwed here. The two truths can't exist simultaneously but they had to try and make that happen. That's required by current law. To this end they bent over backward in support of the trans lie because that's been the modern way but it's biting them in the bum. They have become the test case.

They might have come out of this better with more care, adhesion to rules and some forethought and maybe some proper leadership.

He has stood up in court, under oath, and repeatedly said “I’m not a man” - NOT ‘I am a woman’ which could have some wriggle room in meaning with a bit of circular logic, but “I’m not a man”, which is perjury and can carry a custodial sentence.

I'm only on p32 here, but has the 'bring your whole self to work' thing been raised at all?

I've no idea if Fife NHS espouses that nonsense but it wouldn't surprise me if they did. It seems to me, in not being shy about letting her colleagues know that she was a Trump supporter, Sandie was 'bringing her whole self' to work.

And look where it got her.

I've been planning my Da's funeral this week and along with the Pipes playing him out to Amazing Grace, this has made the shortlist. Because he would have approved and because it was one of his favourate songs that I had forgotton

Annoyingly he left no instructions

The tribunal dont actually need to rule on Upton's sex, do they? They do need to consider if Sandie had a reasonable belief that he was male and that a person born male cant change sex. Upton admits he has a trans history and his birth certificate shows male. Sandi has a legally protected belief that he's still male.

His legal sex is somewhat more difficult if there is no register of those with GRCs in Scotland. But Scotland's people still have his birth certificate as male.