NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

Thanks to
@nauticant
@ickky
and TT

for keeping us updated and all your hard work!

Heres a couple of kids outside the court in Dundee this morning
They’ve got it in one 👏👏👏

Well it's all so nebulous isn't it?
All this court process and stuff - can't be that serious surely?

I picked this up, and it’s why I think the panel we’re trying to get a timeline of what happened when. I think this could be crucial.

I’m also interested in what the HR witness says.

I can’t see how the hospital can settle when tied to DU and potentially KS. I don’t know if anyone can answer, but could the Hospital as R1 settle but leave the claims against DU as R2 and potentially KS as R3 to continue?

I said it on an earlier thread KS maybe the scapegoat for this.

Thank you, all of you.

I am going to go lie down in a darkened room now.

I'll do the laundry/vacuuming/clearing up real soon now

P2- you mentioned grades, you thought is should be grade 7 or 8, can you explain
ED - all reg nurses are band 5, charge nurses are band 6, senior charge nurses are band 7, 8, I am band 8.
P2 - the two senior charge nurses are both band 7
ED - yes, band 7
P2 - do doctors fall into this system
ED - describes categories of doctors, too quick to catch details
P2 - so KS would be a consultant

I suppose I have the benefit of having worked in the NHS but I was a bit surprised at the panel member's lack of knowledge of AfC bands and that medical staff were on different scales from nursing and other staff.

It does highlight that each party needs to adduce evidence in support of their case, and can't just assume that certain things can be taken as being known by the panel.

I wonder if that might explain the J's remark yesterday that ED as a nurse rather than a Dr couldn't be expected to explain the reality of sex? (Or at least that's how I read his remark on TT) ie the J isn't familar with nurse training and knowledge

Like many I've been lurking for years and wondering what the actual fuck is going on. Started making the odd comment both here and IRL as I firstly I am lucky enough to be self employed and secondly honestly don't give a fuck anymore.

My thanks to @nauticant and @ickky for their sterling work over the past couple of weeks and to Sandie Peggie for having the backbone to stand up to this shit.

Just checking I have this correct. JR is a KC but NC is not? In what world is that possible???

The panel is only able to make a judgement based on the facts presented. They may know the structure but need to ask to gather it as evidence.

No-one picked up yet on the nurse in the department having no time to make notes - but the junior doctor did .........interesting question from the judge.

Do you think anyone in Fife NHS thinks things are going well?

I thought he might have been trying to move things along, and thought that the questions about sex could more relevantly be asked of other witnesses like KS.

However, I think NC was trying to establish that ED was under pressure to agree with Dr Upton's interpretation of events.

You are not alone. When this was mentioned by ED this morning I said this sent a chill through me. Dozens of posters have clicked 'agree' on that post.

Just catching up. Thanks for the threads especially @nauticant and @ickky !

The only Clarks that was there at the same time as me was the worthy shop where responsible parents who couldn't afford Start-Rite took their toddlers to be fitted with sensible leather shoes. I think the new Clarks (which I had to Google) might have swallowed up a great deal of my student grant.

I've never really had any nostalgia for Dundee despite living there perfectly happily for five years. Until now.

I wonder who signs off on a Trust's GI policy in the workplace?

Has the CEO (or whatever term is used for the top banana) any involvement and would s/he be expected to give evidence, or is that just for pesky nurses, Grade 8s and junior doctors?

Maybe the whole thing is devolved to clinical, HR, Finance, and so on. But surely the boss has to bear some responsibility.

I have no idea how NHS trusts work BTW.

Upton was mentioned to have a temporary post in psychiatry in something like thread 3. It was said that it isn't a training post (they are hard to get). I cant say if this is true or not.

Indeed she is not. One must apply for 'silk'. The barrister that helps us with TT said to us once 'just because they are good advocates doesn't mean they are KCs'.

She might not care about it. Not sure it increases fee income or what other impacts it might have.

There was a TV series, many moons ago, called "A Change of Sex" about a man called George who was "transitioning" to become Julia.

There are very awkward scenes with his psychiatric doctor in some sessions before the surgery (which was ultimately a failure) in which the very very stern doctor was grilling "Julia" as to what he though a woman was, what he though made HIM a woman, and so on. The doctor scoffed at his idea of what a woman was and the other women on the panel also said even THEY didn't know what it was to "be" a woman, they just were women,

I don't know if any of you remember this series.
Maybe it's time to bring back that kind of old school pre transition system. I'm sure he had to "live" as a woman for a lengthy time period too.

Very scary doctor! Not saying he has the best bedside manner but at least you couldn't just pop on some lipstick and wander into a ladies changing room.

I mean when they are first attached to a document that forms part of the evidence for the tribunal

I may have this wrong but my understanding is that the notes were made on a personal phone by appending dates and events to a single document

It does not appear they were shared at the time the events occurred so it is possible that they were e.g. all written (or polished) the day before they were shared with the person running the investigation.

Without the metadata showing edit times etc isn't it impossible to prove that they are contemporaneous?

Yes they are

If anyone is suffering from tribunal withdrawal symptoms this weekend I commend the podcast someone linked up thread.

I confess I like a bit of nerdy bundle talk. Pagination, chronology, indexing😳. When Naomi does it, be still my beating heart!

And we get to hear about her lovely mum.

https://employmentlawmatters.buzzsprout.com/442960/episodes/16183173-s9e12-tribunal-bundles

I love this, thank you!

Totally agree with the woman on the panel. I don't feel like a woman either, and it amazes me every time a man says he feels like a woman. How the hell would he know?!

Just wanted to say Thank You to @nauticant for the excellent thread wrangling. Thanks to Tribunal Tweets for keeping us all informed.

Thank you Sandie for your courage in bring this case.

Roll on July

There was a TV series, many moons ago, called "A Change of Sex" about a man called George who was "transitioning" to become Julia.

The whole series, all 5 episodes, is on BBC iPlayer for those who can access it.

drunk policy llama driving the bus