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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 11:43

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
CarefulN0w · 14/02/2025 17:21

I can see why people might be shuddering at propofol, but DU is still a Dr in training and will be supervised. He won't be left in charge of unconscious patients.

Theatres is also an area where some people stay a long, long time. There will be 30 year veteran nurses there too, just like Sandie. And I'm confident that they will keep a very close eye.

Though goodness knows how they will manage the changing room situation. I have a feeling it may well be under review.

Jerabilis · 14/02/2025 17:24

https://telegraph.co.uk/gift/4eaef18250d0ec63

The press are very focused on the fact that Fife's own HR staff thought the suspension was unreasonable. Great comments again.

InvisibleDragon · 14/02/2025 17:24

Wanted to hop on the thread before it gets full to say a huge thank you again to @ickky and @nauticant for their amazing work keeping us updated across these 2 weeks!!

And to JoMarch for all the Times BTL comments!

This has been a totally bizarre tribunal and I have been totally sucked down the rabbit hole of following it. Actually quite glad we have a break now, because being glued to my phone for updates is not great for my health and sanity!!

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 14/02/2025 17:25

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2025 16:46

If ED had been the second woman to object to Upton in the changing room over concerns that it wasn't equality, would it have encouraged other women in the department to speak up.

ED is responsible for her own position. She was in a position of more authority and it would have been harder to suspend her and to retrain her, if she was doing her job in understanding equality AND safeguarding.

She has said by her own admission, that she might have taken a different tact and said no to Upton if there had been more opposition.

Therefore she wasn't actually taking the Equality advised policy route at all. She was taking the path of least resistance and would give her an easy life. And she was able to do this because she knew damn well she had an imbalance of power and everyone else felt intimidated by management on the subject - everyone junior was in no doubt she was TWAW from her framing.

Her framing was 'in order to make Upton feel welcome, we should accommodate him in the changing room. If you have a problem with that let me know'. Therefore by default saying if you didn't accept it you were considered as being unwelcoming.

And therein lies your issue.

ED wasn't neutral and ED made her opinion and that of managements clear to junior staff.

I've been tied up with pesky work this afternoon so just catching up but didn't ED say SP was the only person to have a problem with DU in the female CR but also that she had no idea that the incident between DU and A.N.Other in the changing room involved Sandie? Surely if ED genuinely believed SP was the only bigot
transphobe person with an objection in the village she would think Ahh SP when learning there had been an 'incident' in the CR?

nauticant · 14/02/2025 17:28

Jamieandhismagictorch · 14/02/2025 17:15

Thanks you everyone who found my input useful in the past. Back then I had an obsessional need to TELL people what was going on and how fecking MAD it was and is. It takes women like Sandie going through this shitshow to show people. I will now dereg. again because I have very little self control, but you women are fantastic I shall be here lurking😚

There's nothing wrong with stepping back and letting others step forward for a while. Being active in this crazy stuff is utterly exhausting. But thanks, really thanks.

OP posts:
delvan · 14/02/2025 17:28

Where is he changing his scrubs now. 😉

HesSoBadHesGood · 14/02/2025 17:28

Jamieandhismagictorch · 14/02/2025 16:10

Yup that was me. Got quite wind-bag-y. Can't afford for my real name to be out as it's unusual😀

Your comments on the Times articles were always spot on, thank you!

I think you did shed a light for a lot of readers

KohlaParasaurus · 14/02/2025 17:29

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 17:03

might be time to visit the long lost relatives 😂

I'm a Dundee medical graduate from back in the olden days (long before the V&A and Discovery Point) and am suddenly feeling the need to take DH on a tour of my misspent youth. Is Fisher and Donaldson still going?

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 17:30

PoorMisgenderedPeteThePlumber · 14/02/2025 16:32

I quoted you to re post, but the thread was moving so quickly, I couldn't do it.

THIS IS A CALL TO ALL STAFF AT FIFE ANE WE KNOW YOU ARE HERE. BREAK THE FEAR COME FORWARD AS WITNESSES ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL YOU HAVE A DUTY TOO.

ALL YO HAVE TO DO IS CONTACT NIAOMI CUNNINGHAM

Yes - this is your moment!
https://www.tiktok.com/@jr._.clips/video/7322669002713599264

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 17:31

Mountaingoat23 · 14/02/2025 16:39

I'm making an application for a forensic search of handover notes for Halloween night 2024 to see if anyone reminded the nurses not to accidentally abandon or stop resus on any anaphylactic children this time round!

You fell down the back of the lockers in the female CR?

crosstalk · 14/02/2025 17:32

From my understanding, providing you have permission for forensic examination of the phone, compelled or not, you don't need the phone itself unless there's stuff locally stored. The rest of it is in the Cloud? could someone confirm?

Jamieandhismagictorch · 14/02/2025 17:33

@nauticant. I put some 'I stand with Sandie Peggie' and other assorted messages painted on stones in some appropriate London places today. Tee Hee

PoorMisgenderedPeteThePlumber · 14/02/2025 17:33

delvan · 14/02/2025 17:28

Where is he changing his scrubs now. 😉

Rebecca Vardy's boat

WarriorN · 14/02/2025 17:36

Jks latest tome:

WarriorN · 14/02/2025 17:36

Arse still no photos

WarriorN · 14/02/2025 17:37

x.com/jk_rowling/status/1890450465063600510?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Upton's a man
And you're a bloke, too.

#Valentinesday2025 India🌹

ThatsNotMyTeen · 14/02/2025 17:37

Going back to basics here but what I can’t get over is Dr U in any way genuinely believing he has a right to use the women’s CR? I mean he KNOWS he’s a man. Despite his bullshit under oath in ET he does. He has decided to assume a different ID in his head. Fine. But how on earth did he then make that leap that he can now use the ladies CR because of what goes on in his head? It’s so weird

Waitwhat23 · 14/02/2025 17:39

Inspired by the Valentine's Day poems by JKR and others -

Some haiku....

Sandie Peggie's trial
We all avidly followed.
18,000 posts.

Missing documents,
Attempts at controlling speech,
Oh, it's had it all.

One coercive man,
Nurses denying science,
Jaws dropped everywhere.

Now it's all over
Until July comes around.
Booked your AL yet?

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 17:40

ThatsNotMyTeen · 14/02/2025 17:37

Going back to basics here but what I can’t get over is Dr U in any way genuinely believing he has a right to use the women’s CR? I mean he KNOWS he’s a man. Despite his bullshit under oath in ET he does. He has decided to assume a different ID in his head. Fine. But how on earth did he then make that leap that he can now use the ladies CR because of what goes on in his head? It’s so weird

This is what I hope the judge is saying to himself right now :)

MilitantFawcett · 14/02/2025 17:41

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 17:21

Honestly I don't know how all you lurkers can keep quiet throughout this shitshow. I admire your restraint and I feel like an utter gobshite 😂

Honestly I have no words (well I do but they’re all four letters and wouldn’t contribute much to discussion!), What a shitshow, poor Sandie having to navigate all this. But thanks to @nauticant and @ickky for keeping this so updated and for signposting other gardening opportunities. Been busy planting 😉

delvan · 14/02/2025 17:41

What date in July please, so I can remind myself to tune in from my changing room on the beach.

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 17:41

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 14/02/2025 16:44

I expect DU will be subject to informal supportive supervision in his practice given the considerable stress he is under etc etc. In other words I would be amazed if Fife was not actively babysitting him.

"special leave"?

Arran2024 · 14/02/2025 17:42

ThatsNotMyTeen · 14/02/2025 17:37

Going back to basics here but what I can’t get over is Dr U in any way genuinely believing he has a right to use the women’s CR? I mean he KNOWS he’s a man. Despite his bullshit under oath in ET he does. He has decided to assume a different ID in his head. Fine. But how on earth did he then make that leap that he can now use the ladies CR because of what goes on in his head? It’s so weird

He is in a bubble where no one is giving him a different perspective. Isn't his wife non binary? Given the way the entire Scottish establishment has been captured and the capitulation by his bosses to his demands, he probably never encountered any dissenting voices. He has probably been affirmed in his choices the whole way through.

JasmineAllen · 14/02/2025 17:43

Arran2024 · 14/02/2025 17:17

Hasn't Upton moved to anaesthetics? I don't know if that's better or worse...

It's going to be really tough for him trying to work out how much anaesthetic to give, what's the most suitable intubation tube size etc because it's not like he can use the sex of the patient as a guide, what with sex being nebulous 🙄

Theatre was my nursing specialism. Drs and Nurses there work very closely as a team, often for years and years, more than anywhere else I ever nursed.

Arguments happen and people don't take much shit. It can be a very stressful environment, especially covering emergency theatre.

I'd love to know how all his nonsense is going down with his new colleagues 😂

ThatsNotMyTeen · 14/02/2025 17:44

Arran2024 · 14/02/2025 17:42

He is in a bubble where no one is giving him a different perspective. Isn't his wife non binary? Given the way the entire Scottish establishment has been captured and the capitulation by his bosses to his demands, he probably never encountered any dissenting voices. He has probably been affirmed in his choices the whole way through.

Oh I bet no one’s ever said no to him his whole life and having this pretend ID is just an extension of that. The privately educated, middle class, young white male somehow turns himself into a “marginalised minority”. What a twat

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