NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

I'm sure that NHS Fife would love to settle. It's just that their hands are tied in what they could offer in a settlement. They're so constrained that it would most likely be nowhere near enough for Sandie Peggie.

The legal action hasn't been brought by NHS Fife, so whether or not to continue isn't their decision to make. If SP has decided she wants to carry on to judgment, and her backers are happy to support her, NHS Fife have no choice but to continue.

Looking at my ancient camper van and wondering if it could make it that far and whether there are many very steep hills, which it has an aversion to. A fortnight on the east coast in July might be fun. Terf Camp, anyone?

He went to a comp.

I'm going to have to put the continuation thread up early because I might not be available to put it up at the right time. Here you go:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

However, might I request that people fill up this thread first before moving over to the new one? Thanks.

I think we all know. DU was all over the process and everyone else were mere pawns. He's possibly signed himself and all his mates on a cruise around the med ostensibly "on a conference" until July because having taken complete control of A&E and HR, he moved on to accounts

More seriously - it can all be traced back to poor wee 6ft smiley but vulnerable Beth who'd needed protecting from the hate incident. They had no idea what was going to tumble out of the biological woman's mouth under oath. If they had none of this would have happened at all

Did he? Ah I stand corrected. Still an over privileged, entitled male twat though.

I think 28th is the last day of evidence, then 29th and 30th would be for the barristers to sum up/present their cases/whatever it's called in this context (which will be the best bit, maybe)?

My strong impression at this point is that for SP, they've put her through so much that she wants closure. There is no sign that she would settle and her motivation seems not to be remotely financial. For instance, she has said that the crowd funder money will go to charity, and her initial response to people wanting to support her was to ask for donations to her dad's memorial fund.

If our assumptions about funding are correct, there is presumably a fairly limitless financial resource behind her, and a backer who just doesn't back down.

I’m sure it’s not just money for Sandie, I mean it’s bound to settle for less than this farce has cost, but about getting a court judgment and a public declaration of wrongdoing

I keep coming back to the idea that there's no way Upton just kept notes on one nurse. There must have been others. Why hasn't that come up? And also it'd bloody obvious that if he was making all these notes he would know the date of the milky bar kid incident, but he says he doesn't.

How Naomi Cunningham wasn't sitting there rubbing her chin doing her best Jimmy Greaves I don't know. Nerves of steel right there.

Remember, every extra day in court is worth £4-£10k for JR. So another 11 days will suit her very nicely.

Interesting. "Gender reassignment" crops up in the repealed Sex Discrimination Act 1975, the earliest legislation I can find with that wording on legislation.gov

I can't find any definition of "gender reassignment" in that act. Also, what prior legislation defined or provided for gender reassignment? Anyone know?

Submissions.

I got those dates from a telegraph article I think.

But I'll sure TT said it would be 11 days.

I am sorry if this is dumped in the middle of a different discussion point but I’m still trying to catch up by reading TT threads and this just leaped out at me:

J - you found out SP was involved on 31st of Jan, was that from Louise?
ED - yes that's correct, there was an email from Kate, and a phone call from Louise
J - had you seen the Datix
ED - I can't say when I saw that
J - what advice did you get from Gillian Malone, and ?
ED - there were two aspects to the complaint, the changing room incident and patient safety angle, we were looking for solutions
J - what did GM say
ED - she said if it could compromise patient care, that would justify suspension.

Maybe it’s phrasing but on 31st Jan they are looking to justify suspension after they’d done it? And IIRC before a formal complaint had been made about patient safety??

Oh yes indeed. Was Clarks there when you were a student ?

You will find it interesting to see how much Dundee has changed .

I reckon SP would settle for a handful of brass buttons if they were attached to a grovelling apology and the guarantee of single sex spaces through the trust from now on.
But I don't think we would see both Rs agree to that.

But could they just plead guilty, just to stop the bloodbath? Or would it need R2 to concede as well?

(Unlikely that they will, though.)

It is clear that a drunk policy llama is driving the bus because noone else is making any decisions whatsoever about anything... nope not me... not having my fingerprints on that last..... like a grim pass the parcel that noone wants sinking their career. Explains the whole thing from start to finish

The definition of GR is in the Sex Discrimination (Gender Reassignment) Regulations 1999.
If you click on the link it shows you the definition of the protected characteristic:
intends to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone gender reassignment.

And gender reassignment is defined further down as: "a process which is undertaken under medical supervision for the purpose of reassigning a person’s sex by changing physiological or other characteristics of sex, and includes any part of such a process"

I'm sure she'd settle for £1 if it meant DU and the NHS standing up to admit everything and then holding a full press conference to offer detailed apologies and begging forgiveness. DU might be more up for that now that the extent of the legal costs/settlement liabilities might be becoming clear

a drunk policy llama is driving the bus

Crying out for some visuals, that! 😃

Just finished thread 18 and this one's already up to 919!!

Thanks so much to @nauticant and @ickky for this.

Oh I’m almost caught up, this is the first time I’ve clicked the link to the next thread and it wasn’t full, almost but not quite.

I’m another lurker but I’ve been closely watching this tribunal and I’m raging on Sandie’s behalf. I’ve been bimbling around the foothills for a year or two shamefully struggling with my inner views and with being kind. After the things I’ve heard and read over the last couple of weeks I can’t believe how quickly this asthmatic, arthritic 52 year old has reached the top of this mountain.