NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

https://x.com/scott_wortley/status/1890453059437769059?s=46

"Would love to see a copy of the assessment NHS Fife made on merits and demerits of continuing with the legal action."

(Scott Wortley is a legal professor at Edinburgh University)

This has crossed my mind a few times. Where was the assessment of the likely prospects of success in defending this case, at every stage? Who signed off on this as a case worth pushing to this point & beyond? What real investigations were carried out & by whom, to test the merits of their case & position? How closely did they test DU's evidence, and everyone else's?

The number of stages they would have had to get through, to get to this point, and not see the holes in what they had (or they did see the holes but thought withheld evidence was the route to take) should have been robust enough to see the folly in all of this.

There's 'playing chicken' in the lead up to a live trial & then there's absolutely bat shit levels of confidence in being able to get out of this with even a shred of credibility, all the while burning through NHS cash.

I genuinely cannot fathom who signed off on this - a 10 day trial would be a huge expense from their point of view. Was all of this really worth pushing this to the limit? Never mind the financial cost, their reputation is in tatters. And we're looking at another lengthy & expensive continuation in July.

It's all madness!

Been out and still playing catch up, sorry if this has been said already.

The allocation system for junior doctors used to be different. So it was based on a points system where you scored points for various things like your ranking in your medical school and whether you had some things like published papers or presenting at conferences (I think, not an expert on this). Then you express a preference for where you want to be and the more points you had the more chance you get what you want.

If you dont rank highly you get the shit rotations no-one else wants. Of course they could be the ones you put top of your list, if you really want to be in that location ( say for your partners employment or your kids school) but doctors are a competitive bunch and would usually choose the popular (higher prestige ) posts. You wouldnt necessarily go to hospitals far apart but might rotate between departments in a big hospital and then maybe a couple in a nearby hospital.

The system has now changed but that was probably how it was for Upton.

And my guess for phone - they want to see when his notes were actually made.......

correction

Scott Wortley is a Scottish Law Lecturer. Not sure he's a professor. But he knows a thing or 2 about the law!

Well I'm off to make an old fashioned as I believe it is JKR's favourite cocktail. Will raise a glass to Sandie, NC and all of the women who won't wheesht.

Is his wife non-binary every day? I only ask because he said he was a lesbian, so she must've been female when he said that....

Chersfrozenface

Apologies if this has already been covered, but gender reassignment as a protected characteristic was bolted onto the Sex Discrimination Act of 1975 by the Sex Discrimination (Gender Reassignment) Regulations 1999. So it is correct to say that GR as a protected characteristic predates the GRA2004.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/1102/made

16th - 30th July

Is that right? Didn't the chairman say 16-28 July at one point?

As SP is the claimant, NHS Fife have no route to settle if she's not interested in settling. And as DU is co-respondent, he would have to agree to any settlement offer.

From what we've seen of both individuals, it seems unlikely that a settlement could be achieved. Therefore, NHS Fife are tied to a stake and bearlike they must fight the course (Macbeth!). They will now be paying for a total of 21 days in court for their legal team, plus God knows how much prep time.

FAFO. No sympathy whatsoever here, except for the patients who will miss out on care due to them pissing away tens of thousands on their wilful EDI arrogance and stupidity.

Is it possible the lawyers could say we can’t defend this any more and say they will withdraw, the problem is if they can and do that it forces DU to agree or find his own legal team, and also places Fife at risk of a claim from him?

If I remember rightly Colleen Rooney very much wanted to settle and was prepared to apologise to Rebekah Vardy but Vardy wouldn’t settle. Didn’t end well for her.

Dearest Gentle Reader

In the grand halls of Victoria Hospital, Fife, a scandal most unsettling has captured the attention of society. Nurse Sandie Peggie, a devoted healer of thirty years, found herself at odds with Dr. Beth Upton, a physician who, though identifying as a lady, retained certain masculine features. Their fateful meeting in the female changing quarters during Christmastide of 2023 left Nurse Peggie in discomfort, prompting her to voice her concerns.

Alas, such words proved most grievous, for by January 2024, Nurse Peggie was suspended, accused of harassment. Seeking justice, she appealed to the employment tribunal, claiming discrimination under the revered Equality Act of 2010. The hospital’s equality board had, it was revealed, declared Dr. Upton’s right to use the space unquestionable.

Yet, whispers within the human resources department deemed the punishment “ludicrous,” exposing a lack of true evidence against Nurse Peggie. Now, as the tribunal unravels this tangled affair, the ton awaits a verdict that may well shape the future of personal beliefs, shared spaces, and the delicate balance between rights and comfort. A most riveting affair indeed, with consequences that shall echo beyond the gilded halls of Fife.

(I take no credit - it were ChatGPT innit)

Hasn't Upton moved to anaesthetics?

I find that a tad disturbing

Just reading through the TT threads on their substack, and keep being so gobsmacked. Latest one is re ED saying how complex rotas are to prepare. I thought preparing rotas was something all student nurses were expected to complete - either before or on their final management placement.

Just caught up and thank you so much everyone.

There will be a hell of a lot of selfies to wade through on Upton's phone I'm guessing.

At least ten per voice note.

You do need the phone to do a full forensic examination. That allows you to recover stuff that isn't in the cloud. The person conducting the examination will use equipment that also allows them to recover stuff the user has deleted.

Perhaps not on the days they were TTC?

They didn't want to look at it two days ago...

Indeed. In his own words "noone had ever spoken to me like that before"
Reality bites

This is what I said a week ago--that if they had any brains, they'd confer while the court was in recess over the weekend, and they'd conclude that they hadn't got a leg to stand on, and they'd surrender on Monday. But such brains were not to be found, and the case continues. It looks as if they'll carry on to the bitter end.

I felt the same when I first realised what was happening - the anger, the rage that this was going on, and most people seemed not to care. I felt like we should be rioting in the streets about it!

I told loads of people, and sadly lost some friends along the way. And then also had to step away a bit, as the anger and frustration was a bit overwhelming. FWR was such a sanctuary, even though we were hived off into the naughty corner (god forbid women talk about our rights and spaces on the Feminist boards!)

I always appreciated your comments on TOL ❤

This has probably been posted before but I so wish Robert Winston could give evidence https://x.com/sharrond62/status/1890132870556995585?s=46&t=zeqvo7Iw1m8V4kXAX7nn1A

I have a bit of Tribunal experience (but not employment law and not Scotland) and I thought people may find the following links/explanations useful when understanding how it all works.

The Employment Tribunal is there to establish facts, if there are any facts that are not agreed between the parties, and to hear the view of the relevant law from both sides, and then to decide which is the relevant law to apply to the facts as they are agreed or as the Tribunal has decided.

For example. It is an agreed fact that SP was suspended. It is a contested fact whether the 'resus patient' incident happened.

This is very important because as a general rule, once the ET has found the facts, you can't generally appeal those to a higher court. You can appeal to a higher court on a point of law. The only way to appeal facts to a higher court is a very high bar of 'no reasonable Tribunal could have found those facts'.

Some of the evidence will therefore be irrelevant because it is only the law relating to the actual appeal that will be decided upon. But some of it is useful in deciding how much weight to give to any individual person's evidence.

Once the judgement has been given, as mentioned above, only the points of law can be appealed. A judge has to give permission for the appeal to be allowed.

Employment Tribunal Procedure rules can be found here:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2024/1155/contents/made

Various directions and guidance specific to Scotland can be found here:
https://www.judiciary.uk/guidance-and-resources/directions-for-employment-tribunals-scotland/#practice

This includes guidance on transcripts and who can apply for them.

Further guidance and costs on requesting a transcript is here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/order-a-transcript-of-court-or-tribunal-proceedings-form-ex107/guidance-for-requesting-a-transcript

It is possible to request a transcript for all, or only some, of the proceedings.

I'm going to raise a glass to Sandie and her team tonight - and especially to the Anonymous Backer

I am in a compassionate mood, today. My sympathetic thoughts:

It was Christmas, I'd just reversed into a bin...(sorry that was GCC & Stonewall with the b-thing that shan't be named).

As far as I can tell, management had all gone off on their Xmas hols and/or about to be signed off sick.

The staff remaining in admin/HR/supervisory roles all seemed out of their depth, but decided to blag it.

On their return, management didn't think to enquire whether there was anything of importance they needed to address. Quite why there isn't/wasn't an accountant breathing down the necks of HR demanding to know why somebody needed to be suspended for so many weeks; I despair.

Conscious competence is a skill not many possess. Unconscious incompetence, seems to be becoming less rare these days.

IB reminds me of those young trustees at ERCC.

It was plain incompetent for ED not to confirm IB's conversation in writing and relay it ASAP to SP.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Dr Upton's phone. DARVO seems compelling after 2 weeks of evidence and a lot of flannel.

My own phone is exceptionally dull, though I do have some very odd internet searches thanks to The Archers plotlines.

I don't know who it is, but I am hugely grateful to SP's deep-pocketed funder.