NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

Is Fisher and Donaldson still going?

They made my favourite hot cross buns ever. I lived in Dundee for a few years.

I can't think of an elegant way to exonerate SP because of the allegations and "no smoke without fire" in re: the hate crime/incident and patient safety. Those are such egregious allegations would look as if she would need to go through an FtP with the NMC unless she's exonerated or it's found that they're groundless (even then).

It's difficult to exonerate someone without details. It would have to be very clear that either

• this comes down to perception and there was no SP on DU / BU B&H
• similarly with the 'patient safety' it was perception and not grounded in actual observation nor reality

or

• the incidents/allegations were contrived for reasons…which may land other members of staff or 'main characters' in professional difficulty.

There are no easy exits here, afaict and based on my experience of NHS England.

I'd be utterly delighted to be catastrophically and comprehensively wrong.

As a manager she's at least a band 7, could be an 8a. So probably £50k+

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that years ago men who underwent gender reassignment surgery had to sign some sort of waiver to say that they acknowledge that it is just cosmetic, and doesn't actually make them the opposite sex.

Was that a thing or am I mistaken? And it if was a thing, when did it go?

At this point I think Sandie and her backer(s) want to effect change, to bring this whole shitshow into public rather than it being about financial compensation.

@Boiledbeetle can you assist with some visuals because I can only work the text AI as I'm not a computer person you see?

Upthread, ED is a band 8.

I don't know when they stopped doing that - perhaps around the time the term "transgender" was invented? But certainly it was the case that accepting the impossibility of changing sex was part of the deal in the old days.

The Equality Act 2010 was a consolidating measure which brought together a whole raft of equality legislation from the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 onwards. The Sex Discrimination (Gender Reassignment) Regulations 1999 added gender reassignment protection to the Sex Discrimination Act, following some court cases that indicated this needed to be done. The Gender Recognition Act was not about equal treatment but largely about the legal status of trans people in the context of marriage at a time before same-sex marriage was allowed.
HTH

Edited to say I see others have made these points before me!

JK porm update:

x.com/ffs_whatnow/status/1890452245772222487?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Jack David @Ffs_whatnow:

The lipstick is red
His braincells are few
A video in the car
Is coming for you

JK:

Roses of crimson
And silvery stars
I do love her videos
Ranting in cars.

Give her a diamond
Or snowy white pearl
It won't make her happy
She's still not a girl.

I'd find it quite tragic
I'd be quite heartsick
If only dear India
Wasn't a prick.

Jack:

Jo, don't you know
He once read the news
And it was your genocide
That restricted his views

The only reason
He can't find a job
Is cos you said a woman
Isn't born with a knob.

JK:

Craving attention
He painted his arms
To tell all the world
Of the woes and the harms

Inflicted on trans folk
By Labour and me
Without whom he'd be
A celebrity (D).

POEM update

Contacts going dry

Is DU personally responsible for any of the costs or liabilities?

Notes on only one person = bullying
Notes on more than one person = victim complex

Perhaps not to have made notes and tried to find a workable solution at the time would have been a better approach

I'm not sure sandie and her backers would settle.
I think they want legal ruling this policy was wrong and discriminated against a protected characteristic. And that DU being in the female changing room was harassment of sandie

That's interesting; I"d never heard that before.

I just realised I know a retired surgeon who used to perform gender reassignment surgery. I used to think "how kind". Now I wonder whether he's a closet TRA 😂

I remember you too Jamie 👋!

Wish I could double agree Squeaky.

And would like to have this said again:

FAFO. No sympathy whatsoever here, except for the patients who will miss out on care due to them pissing away tens of thousands on their wilful EDI arrogance and stupidity.

Fuck around and fucking find out, NHS and those requiring even bigger girl's pants.

I know, right?!

If one of my colleagues ignored me or avoided me, I'd just have a chat and ask whether I'd upset them. No note-taking required as far as I'm concerned.

All respondents are apparently jointly and severally liable.

In that I feel a bit sorry for KS as she's been lumped on at the last minute and even if she is found guilty of a claim, surely it can't be as great as what we've heard from DU/NHS Fife?

Usually NHS employees might expect to be covered by their employer - but in this instance public rage might go stratospheric (never mind peak) if a penny of public money goes to someone who has expressed views like DU's.

I emailed Wes Streeting at the DfH to express my feelings on this and you might wish to do the same

All I know about Dundee is the cake and there's a statue to the Lemmings computer game. Perhaps someone could put little suffragette scarves around their little necks and take a photo. Although, lemmings do have a tendency to self destruct so perhaps a little trans flag for each of them might be more appropriate?

I'm still unclear as to when the notes were first entered into the record

Also delurking to say thank you to @nauticant and @ickky for amazing thread management and update posts.

I am so relieved for this sunlight. Even if it doesn’t go entirely in Sandie’s favour, there is a huge value to the fact it is being debated. It’s fundamentally depressing that we’re in this situation but the strength of Sandie and her backers offers a glimmer of hope.

If you mean when was the first note on SP?
It was 26th August when she stood outside the changing room - according to my note

Well, he probably was sort of being kind - in those days GRS was a last resort for people who were absolutely revolted by their own bodies. I'm sure there were some "frequent fliers" in there, but mostly I would imagine his patients were males with extreme internalised homophobia, or who had suffered abuse or something? .

For balance I am reading posts on Reddit as well. This voice of reason has no likes whatsoever.

Tale3430
•10h ago

Hi all, first of all, i would like to extend my sympathy for Beth as it is a hard situation to be in. I dislike bringing bad news but after reviewing tribunal tweets to see what has been said so far during the hearings, I am worried that it does not look to good for the hospital including how they have handled the incident. Several documents had been withheld by the hospital and also by BU and irrespective of their motives, this is not playing in their favour. It is also becoming apparent that everyone (witness ED and BU) is pointing at KS (supervisor of BU) for deciding what to do about the nurse before any investigation was conducted. It is also clear that the key reason why the nurse was suspended (alleged danger to patients) has not been substantiated by solid evidence yet. the hospital should have found this evidence to have solid case. We will see how things progress with other witnesses but I feel that there is a possibility BU, the hospital and KS will all have to come back as respondents (not sure if KS can continue to be treated as a witness only). They also may require different lawyers this summer during the unplanned second part of this hearing which has been derailed and won’t be completed within 2 weeks as initially planned. let’s hope and see…