What is a woman?

[concretevase]

I just wanted to clarify what everyone thought this meant given recent events at the olympics.

A person born with a uterus and vagina, raised female, with boobs and has periods and the ability to carry and birth a child is not a woman?

Unfortunately we had this with caster semenya for years where users were told - no they are female born XX straight as they come.

So people aren’t really fucking about with pussy footing about this anymore. There’s clearly an issue. The exact issue we don’t know the specifics of.

These conditions are so rare yet they time and time again seem to be winning Olympic competitions! So they shouldn’t be competing.

I get it. It’s sad. They have trained, and then ‘find out this news’. Bear in mind it’s 2024. I’m not buying potential top athletes for a country are not being coached, health tested, sex tested etc. etc.

And I get it also. There’s some confusing stuff. The Y might not be expressed properly. The SRY gene not switched on. The male puberty missed. Even not having a male advantage at all etc etc. But so what?!?

The women’s category is not the people who have a slightly mucked up Y chromosome, nor the uterus category, or the vagina category, or the low testosterone category, nor the non-peni category, not any other insane twist.

It’s the female category. It’s so 50% of humanity have an equal opportunity to be able to compete. If one of those has XX chromosome, a penis and a shit load of testosterone then so be it. You go sister and you got lucky on that for sport.

Hopefully that clears up my stance on this.

"Identifies as" is usually code for "lying", as in men claiming to be women for whatever reason. In this case, to get him Olympic gold he wouldn't get if he was honest about his sex, or if the IOC weren't misogynistic enough to let him cheat.

having a uterus and eggs and periods and having the possibility to have children, having boobs, being a woman, having periods, being born female, having a female name, being raised female are now not even enough to be classified as a woman??

Where do you get the idea that any of these things apply here? "Having a female name" what does that mean? A whole host of men have a "female name".

I'm going by Khelifs assertion she is female and always has been

Good for you. I'm not, I'm going with the balance of evidence available to me.

Sorry meant to quote @concretevase

"Going by K's assertion" is about as eye-rollingly bizarre as going by the claims of the Karen Whites and Isla Brysons of this world to be women.

This.

Neither of the boxers are women. They’re men with a DSD.

They could father children but not bear or birth them.

Quite.

I have a better question
What is a man?

Having a vagina or not is completely irrelevant to whether someone should be in female sport though.

The only body parts that actually are relevant are ovaries and ovary tissue. If a human has a body formed around the production of large gametes, regardless of whether those gametes are ever produced or not, they are female.

If a body has no ovaries and has testes, whether the testes are visible externally or not, the person is male genotype. And if the body produces testosterone and uses that testosterone to virilise the body; that person is male.

These two boxers at the heart of this controversy were both tested twice. They had been told by the IBA the results. They had the results explained to them. They have now know definitively they were male since 2023.

At what point should a person who knows why they were excluded from a category for female because they were male, take responsibility for their own choice to put female athletes at such risk of serious injury?

It has also been said by those who support Semenya’s inclusion into female sports that Semenya has a vagina too. We have been in this position before. An athlete with supposedly with a vagina, being touted as a ‘woman with naturally high testosterone’, a background of significant hardship, it all sounds familiar.

In court, the evidence was presented that Semenya is indeed male. Has 5ARD, may even have that vagina. Vagina doesn’t function much like a vagina though, and doesn’t matter at all. Because Semenya has fully productive testes as far as producing testosterone is concerned. Semenya now even says their ‘testicles don't make them less of a woman’. Of course, they make Semenya male.

These two boxers have been tested to show they are xy chromosome and have been judged by their boxing federation to have male advantage. You seem to choose to ignore those tests. It further has been confirmed by a team member, even naming an endocrinologist who has agreed with those tests, for Khelif. Wishful thinking is not going to change these tests. Ignoring them doesn’t change the reality.

And really, your question here is irrelevant.

It’s a man who says he’s a woman.

And I take the gold for the correct answer.

Does anyone have a link for Semenya’s “ testicles don’t make me less of a woman” quote please?

Here you go

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KnTF9o5ZUcM&pp=ygUndGVzdGljbGVzIGRvbid0IG1ha2UgbWUgbGVzcyBvZiBhIHdvbWFu

would either of these athletes have been disqualified from competing as men?

@concretevase I assume you’ve now seen the article from Imane’s coach saying that Imane has a DSD- that means they are male in everything except birth certificate? Admitting that Imane is suppressing testosterone to be allowed to compete ( NB, still triple women’s levels but far lower than most men); and Imane’s chromosomes are not female?

So in fact we now know rather than suspect that Imane is like Caster Semenya. Imane may have believed they were a woman, but Imane doesn’t behave like a woman and has developed like any other boy into a man. The way Imane behaves in public and the way Imane is treated- intimately touched by coaches etc- makes it really clear that no one thinks Imane is actually female. Except you and some other people who would prefer to be kind to Imane than to all the women whose chances Imane spoiled by competing.

Anything to say about that?

Quintessence keyboard warrior
Point out one thing and ignore the rest
These things are all asserted by Khelif and her family and community

Excellent examples of western racism in the comments

And for the people shouting "she's a man COZ SHE LOOKS LIKE A MAN" you guys are the most un feminist of all. As someone who has been overweight and told 'you look like a bloke' on many occasions that's just fucking offensive

IBA is a banned governing organisation
IOC tests insufficient

We are now entering baying mob territory with ZERO evidence of and DSDs.

Except what her coach has said.

He failed the sex test in 2022. He knows, they all know, he's a man.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

Oh do stop it.
You accuse us of being shallow and relying on looks.
Yet you are looking at the effects of male puberty and you prefer to rely on his scrunchies, lip stick and head tilt.
And you are claiming he's a woman because he looked like a girl aged 7.

Come on, ‘Quintessence Kyboard warrior’ (you could change your name to that)!

How to tell Imane is male. Imane is the only one who ever gets mentioned and the actual females are forgotten 🙄

And yet, World Boxing Organisation and the European boxing confederation have also stated these boxers are male.

You can keep doubling down and declaring the IBA is corrupt. So is the IOC. Why do you believe that the corruption that is being brought up to discredit the IBA means the IBA would illegally ban boxers using false test outcomes?

The IOC hasn’t even tested. It is not that their tests are ‘insufficient’, they are non existent. The IOC have also been proven to have lied, they had the test results the whole time. They knew the labs who conducted the tests.

Are you going to say that those who knew Semenya was male and stated it were ‘baying mobs’ too? Look how that turned out.

By all means lay the blame where it belongs. Right at the doorstep of the IOC offices. In fact, take it all the way back to the campaign groups that the IOC has allowed to convince them that male people should be protected from sex testing and that any male person who effectively wants to enter the protected category of sport has been able to find a way to do so at some stage or other in the past 25 years. if they had a story that made some other people feel sympathy for them, so much the better to silence the dissenters.

Do you believe that the female boxers who signed up for the event consented to getting into the ring with male people who the IOC are supporting as being ‘women’? Yes or no?

And if they didn’t consent, who are you to tell them to effectively suck it up?

Because that is what you have done with your characterisations of people who disagree with you.

Yep.

Any evidence to back your supposed theory of his non-existent vagina up? It is very rare, think vanishingly rare, for humans to go through male puberty, simultaneously have female plumbing and be healthy enough to compete in any sport. Yet now we have had at least 5 in the past decade.

I'm not buying it. And you sound enthrall to identification over truth.