What is a woman?

[concretevase]

I just wanted to clarify what everyone thought this meant given recent events at the olympics.

A person born with a uterus and vagina, raised female, with boobs and has periods and the ability to carry and birth a child is not a woman?

The article that's in French under paywall by a conservative newspaper known for its anti Algerian stance?
No I a) couldn't access the article and b) wouldn't understand it if I could and c) found the coach's interview on youtube, there is no mention of DSD
In fact coach goes to say "She is a woman, despite the so-called tests conducted by the federation I don't even want to name"

Please provide a link to a source where Khelif has stated she has periods and a female reproductive system. I haven’t been able to find any so would find that really helpful. I’ve only seen Khelif stating that her passport and birth certificate state female, therefore she is a woman. If she has the DSD which is widely speculated (5ARD) it is categorically impossible for her to have periods and a functioning female reproductive system - in fact, at puberty it is likely she developed external male genitalia (they were always there, but once the testes she was born with were activated at puberty they would have become much more obvious). This DSD is colloquially referred to as “penis at 12.”

It has been stated that the failed test was not a testosterone test. Therefore the “this is a woman with high levels of testosterone” rumours which are circulating are incorrect. The only real alternative test though is a chromosomal test, which presumably has shown these athletes have XY chromosomes and therefore have 5ARD. 5ARD only develops in biological males, who can appear superficially female at birth due to ambiguous genitalia but will go through male puberty. Please read up on Caster Semenya for a more famous example of this.

None of this unfortunate situation is about identity. We don’t really need to consider identity in sport, in terms of how athletes dress or their pronouns or what bathroom they want to use. It is about biology, and we do need to know what biological sex they are. I feel very sorry for Khelif, as I can’t imagine how it must feel to grow up as a small child believing you are one sex and then to reach puberty and find that biologically you are the opposite. If she chose to carry on living as female I think a lot of people would have a lot of sympathy for her. However, that cannot extend to entering the female category of sport, which must be purely based on biological definition of sex, not gender identification. I cannot sympathise with her using the advantage that being a biological male has given her - whatever she believes about her identity - to enter female sport.

I also note that neither athlete has chosen to publish results of chromosomal testing demonstrating that they have XX chromosomes, which would put this debate to bed, nor have they taken the failed tests to the CAS (Court of Arbitration for Sport). Again, rather than just reiterating that your passport says woman therefore you are one, surely you would want to build a robust case and lay the whole thing to rest? If not, is it because you can’t?

I would be in favour of a Mumsnet biology book.
There's a lot of people who would benefit from it.

You heard it here people! The coach said it's a woman so it must be! You no longer have to identify yourself. Coaches get to do it for you.

Look this person isn't claiming an identity.
They are stating they are not biologically male.

It has nothing to do with anything anyone says. Not coaches, not passports, not the contestants family. Stop trying to make it political.

It's physical.
The contestant and a lab somewhere know the truth.
One of them has spoken up. The other needs to release the results. This is not going away.

This was boxing. Not an individual sport. Not a low contact sport. Sex matters.

“And for the people shouting "she's a man COZ SHE LOOKS LIKE A MAN" you guys are the most un feminist of all. As someone who has been overweight and told 'you look like a bloke' on many occasions that's just fucking offensive”

And this point lacks coherence. I am sorry to hear you have been abused the way you have.

It is not however, a comparable example or are you attempting to compete against a group of people who are part of a protected characteristic that you are not eligible to compete against? No? Then you have just politicised your own situation as an emotionally manipulative distraction.

The point isn’t that Khelif or Lin ‘look like men’ because they fail to meet someone’s beauty standard. The points people raise is that they both have clearly visible virilised male body cues that indicate that their bodies use the testosterone that their bodies produce. And no, not at ‘female’ levels. But healthy male ranges of testosterone.

Allowing femurs and arms to grow longer, to keep hips narrow and knees too so that q-angles can be observed, so that muscle and vascular definition can be observed. It is not about judging ‘feminine’ or not. It is about seeing the impacts of male puberty in plain sight.

But by all means continue to double down. There will be no proof that will be produced any time soon. And in the years to come and the truth comes out, you will not even care that you were wrong and call others names because they disagreed with you. It must make you feel good now though. Well done, you.

Funny how the act of being 'A man' is never speculated on.

Because everyone knows what a man is evidently.

I’m not ignoring the tests, I’ve already said that if she has a condition giving her physical advantages on par with men then she should not be allowed to compete in female boxing. The IOC need to run proper gender testing to ensure the safety of female boxers. If she has a vagina and internal testicles then she is an extremely rare case. I’m not saying she should be allowed to compete against female boxers. The question is what is a woman. If this person doesn’t fit either category definitively then it is up to her to identify as she wishes, and not for random people on the internet to determine.

Is this the same coach that put their hand on Khelif’s chest? Hardly the act of a man who thinks the person they are coaching is female, if that is the case.

No. Individuals do not get to choose their sex.

it is not a category.

Humans are not hermaphrodites. That's a myth, fake news, circulating in certain circles.

Sex is not a choice. There is no confusion about the plumbing. it may not look or do what the owner wants, and it may have unusable extras but sex can still be determined.

And defaulting to female after male puberty is not right and should not be done in elite sport.

We are talking about the Olympics. Her identity doesn't matter for the purposes of what category she should be competing in.

There's no need to speculate at elite sport level.
No woman will even qualify for heats in male sports, let alone be within reach of the podium.

Men have no skin in this game. Only women stand to lose anything.

I see.

So what you are saying is that a woman is anyone who wants to be called a woman.

Ok. Understood. You want to give male people the right to use the words that women need to describe themselves.

You want to say that is a woman in the ring punching another woman’s face, knowing that it is a male person punching a female athletes face.

Do you say this understanding that your logic has been used to collectively cause harm to women and girls? That allowing male people to call themselves women has directly caused this mess, starting from 25 years ago the IOC dropping sex tests to allow these ‘women’ to compete. Because in 1999, a campaign group convinced the IOC that it was distressing for that group of male people to be discovered to not be women when they very much wanted to be?

However, sex matters. Bodies compete in sport not emotions.

By all means, admonish those who are trying to protect female sports if it makes you feel good. It is all the same arguments and name calling as the OP has done that we have been through before. And each event such as this brings more people to understand your personal premise is entirely built on a philosophical belief that no one else has to believe or comply with.

So do admonish away. It must be hard to accept that others don’t feel the need to comply to male people’s desires to be called women, but you seem to need to.

No I a) couldn't access the article and b) wouldn't understand it if I could and c) found the coach's interview on youtube, there is no mention of DSD

That's a different coach. Also a translation has been provided for you of the interview. He's entirely on Khelif's side, he's just more honest.

I think you're just being wilfully blind here now and refusing to accept any of the evidence.

Quintessence keyboard warrior

Thanks. Your arguments are Reddit-level convincing.

These things are all asserted by Khelif and her family and community

Other things are asserted by other people. It's called evidence. You think Khelif and his supporters' account should be compelling. I think the evidence of the IBA tests are more so. A respected journalist has seen them. The IOC had to correct a public claim they made that DSDs weren't involved. Why is that? Because clearly they are. They lied about not having seen the tests at first.

You are clutching at straws here, and getting angry because it's not particularly convincing anyone. There are plenty of places online where you can clap along with people who want to destroy women's sport. But a poll here shows that 81% of Mumsnetters disagree with you on the biological sex of these two boxers.

🤣🤣🤣

To be fair to you OP the translation of the article is on the other main FWR thread. Here's the relevant bit, with bolding:

After the 2023 World Championships, where she was disqualified, I took the lead by contacting a renowned endocrinologist from the Parisian University Hospital, Kremlin-Bicêtre, who examined her. He confirmed that Imane is indeed a woman, despite her karyotype and her testosterone level. He said: "There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes, but she is a woman." That's all that mattered to us. We then worked with a doctor based in Algeria to monitor and regulate Imane's testosterone level, which is currently within the female norm. Tests clearly show that all her muscular and other qualities have been diminishing since then. Currently, she can be compared on a muscular and biological level to a woman-woman-woman.

I didn't understand your post because it was illogical and all over the place.......displaying an obvious lack of clarity, along with a lack of acceptance of both the evidence of your own eyes, and the facts of the matter ( no matter how disputed those facts have been)

Sex testing is not controversial. It is simple; has been done before and I suspect will now be done again.

A woman not being 'feminine' enough is not the issue here. The issue is a male person with a DSD - who was recorded female at birth, but who went on to develop as a male, present as a male ,and now, even act as a male. What woman beats her chest aggressively on winning? I've can't recall ever seeing a female athlete do that.

Have to say given you say you are pregnant and due to give birth your awareness of your own biology seems peculiarly lacking. Who refers to their ovaries as 'surrounding structures'? A new one on me!

I'm a bit confused. I don't know who to believe. The BBC? XY?

Khleif is someone who was recorded as female at birth, due to a DSD. This is why the passport still has a female sex marker on it. That is 'her' legal recorded sex. As a small child Khelif was probably socialised as female.

However, you only need follow the narrative of 'her' life' look at the images posted on 'her' own instagram - to see that Khelif clearly went through male puberty. There is no evidence, at all, that Khelif presents and acts as one would expect a Algerian muslim woman to present and act.

I'd start off with evidence of your own eyes. This is the sort of eveidence that led to the two boxers raising 'suspicions' in the first place - in the minds of the other women's boxing teams - and which led to the IBA conducting two separate tests at verified labs, which were both signed off and not challenged by the boxers themselves.

Do you know who DOESN'T have to assert they are female and lived as a woman?

WOMEN!

You heard it first here guys.

So both male. IBA says male. Sex is at conception anyway, but only noted/recorded at birth. Which was done wrongly.

Plus this is all another Caster Semenya type issue. But this whole thing, This is tiny, affects a tiny % of the population. Yet it's become a big talking point, and now over the 24 Olympics. DSD or other sex queries. Most of us know what sex we are, because it's simple.

'Gender eligibility' for Khelief. It's not gender eligible, it should be sex eligibility.

"I am a woman". No you're not. That was a mistake, at birth, announcing you as the wrong sex. But you know all this. And still demand to participate, in female boxing. Shame on the Olympic committee.

Khleif was given/announced the wrong sex at birth. Told the wrong thing. But instead of now accepting this, continues to demand to box in sport. Go fight in the men's category. See how you get on in that class.