What is a woman?

[concretevase]

I just wanted to clarify what everyone thought this meant given recent events at the olympics.

A person born with a uterus and vagina, raised female, with boobs and has periods and the ability to carry and birth a child is not a woman?

You sound awfully confused and woefully lacking in any sort of knowledge of basic biology OP.

Eggs in their uterus? I keep mine in my ovaries, but I’d still be a woman if my ovaries were removed. Adult human female

@concretevase

a) it’s is correct that it somewhat speculative. What we can deduce from the information available that both people have failed two tests. The Algerian appealed it, and then withdrew. Why? Well because at the Court of Arbitration Sport the DNA or other tests would become public knowledge.

If i was a female being accused of being male i would go public.

B) If you have a “Y” then you are a male. It’s not a letter it is a scientific expression of your DNA.

C) women naturally have testosterone, they, never have the same levels. As men or anywhere near.

D) you are assuming he is female, when it is obvious with ones own eyes he is not, and how it is offensive to you in the way you describe is nonsense/.

E) I do not understand.

F) same as above

G) most likely he was mistakenly identified as a female at birth and once he hit puberty developed as a man, sad as that is he is not female, and he should not be in women’\s boxing.

He can live as a woman for the rest of his life for all i care, fine by me. But you cannot have a situation of genetic, testosterone loaded men in women’s sport.

End of.

Well, given the OP's updates, it seems I got it horribly wrong in my post above 😆. So, here we go again: people stating that we don't know for sure that they're XY, but also stating, without evidence, that they were "born female", have "female body parts", "have all the female anatomy", etc.

So much information posted on so many threads, please go and have a look before posting repetitive, ill-informed, BS!

That's it, I'm out.

@concretevase you sound very empathic and concerned about Imane.

It seems there are two possibilities-
you are right and Imane is being picked on
or
you are wrong and multiple women have been forced to box a massively more powerful male opponent, and have lost out on their chance at the Olympics.

If it’s the second one, do you feel empathy for those women as well?

How so? because I said uterus instead of uterus and surrounding structures? At present the main egg I have is currently the massive fertilised one that is kicking it's way into my cervix.. and surrounding structures.. and was due to exit said structures two days ago. so apologies if I haven't used the correct fucking anatomical term but that is what is on my mind.

Y chromosome comment came from a lancet article that was doing the rounds a few years back - www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)32764-3/fulltext
except at that time I remember the dominant view was 'stop harking on about DSDs as people with DSDs are sick of having their conditions used as culture war fodder'

Your eggs are in your ovaries, not your uterus.

Who is the person you are describing in your OP?

I would except she's also lost nine consecutive matches so if she is a bloke those nine women are stronger blokes than her

OP, you say there is no publically available proof that either boxer is XY.

You also very confidently state that they have the full set of function female reproductive anatomy (including, apparently, a double helping of periods - for which they have my sincerest sympathy). Please provide the public proof of this.

And maybe you could also note down what you think are the male and female reference ranges of testosterone (for the latter, it does indeed rise during pregnancy but the level is unrelated to the sex of the fetus).

Interesting discussion on this subject if anyone is interested.

she's also lost nine consecutive matches

Incorrect.

Nine matches in total, not consecutive. More than half of those were in the first 6 competition matches IK took part in - so when very inexperienced - and all were against much more experienced fighters. Boxing is about skill as well as strength.

(Incidentally, arguing on the Internet is also about skill.)

It doesn't matter a jot whether someone has "lived as a female" all their life.

What matters is whether they are actually female and competing on a level playing field with female athletes.

The only two organs which produce testosterone are testes and ovaries. Testes produce it in large quantities and ovaries produce it in small quantities. The female and male ranges of testosterone in the body do not overlap. A woman who has PCOS does not have testosterone in the male range. A female person cannot get their testosterone in the male range even by doping, or taking exogenous testosterone as part of gender affirming care. A male person cannot get their testosterone in the female range even by taking female sex hormones. There is no overlap. None whatsoever. (You also don't have high testosterone just because you are pregnant with a male foetus. Human males only start to produce large quantities of testosterone from puberty.)

It simply isn't fair or safe to let biological males compete in women's sports. Even if those biological males have "lived as females" for their whole lives. Even if they had no idea they weren't actually female until the International Boxing Association tested their chromosomes. Even if banning them from competing in women's sport will crush their lifelong dreams.

Quite obviously, the International Boxing Association cannot publish people's private medical information. But if the International Olympic Committee considered that the International Boxing Association was an untrustworthy organisation and that consequently its tests couldn't be relied on, they should have performed their own tests rather than just going by what it says in the athlete's passports.

I think that the issue is partly that even if Imane had been raised female, because doctors had not fully recognised the medical condition at birth, it would definitely have become clear that further investigation was required around puberty.

At this point, presumably Imale was already boxing, the question must have arisen as to how or if to continue with this particular sport. And the choice seems to have been to continue to fight women, essentially prioritising Imane's hope of glory over the safety of the women opponents.

While I may have felt sorry at the time for a young teen who had to make a choice to stop competing in a sport they loved, I definitely don't feel in anyway sorry for a man, (if Imane does indeed have xy) who chose to continue fighting women.

Life is not always fair and just as some people's bodies or minds do not enable them to compete at sport, Imane's body might not be the right type to compete in a women's category.
This doesn't mean that Imane shouldn't or can't enjoy sport in general.

You seem to be suggesting that a certain person who has XY chromosomes and has been through male puberty, has a uterus, vagina and boobs. Sorry if that isn't what you are saying, but that is how it seems to me.

At this point, presumably Imale was already boxing

An interview with IK credited the Rio Olympics as the inspiration to begin boxing. Which would have been at age 17.

I'm going by Khelifs assertion she is female and always has been

Yes related to sex of fetus

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2069866/#:~:text=Mean%20(+/%2D%20SD),the%20second%20half%20of%20pregnancy.

Ranges overview - author is also author of Testosterone: an Unauthorized Biography (Harvard University Press, 2019) if you would like to know more

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)32764-3/fulltext

Honestly if she is a man and has been lying all along I will put my hands up and say yes you are right. But she says she is not, never has been, is not trans, and there are people here that are labelling her as 'he' and not even seeing the irony in the argument.

Seriously?

Loads of people say they're female when they aren't.

That's nowhere near rigorous enough for the Olympics.

Just to clarify something from earlier, while its true that for the vast majority of women testosterone range does not overlap with mens it isnt always true (see graph) This graph was derived from data of elite sportspeople and they were chromosomally tested at same time so it indicates xx and xy overlap.

I think "what is a woman/what is a man" is a good question that does need discussion and differing insights but i don't think the presence/absence of a Y chromosome is as definitive as many say and its a shame that this is used to try and shut down the discussion. I think there are valid arguments that people born with androgen insensitivity, with a uterus and vulva and breasts and having lived an entire life as a woman have a right to use the word "woman" to describe themselves.
This is not a sports argument, btw. Most people are not elite athletes.

Without access to this study, were the participants also tested for doping?

An adult who was born with female organs ovaries etc. if you were to cut someone open they would be either a male or a female regardless to how they choose to present themselves (I don’t mean that to sound harsh dress how you please but when it comes down to it you either have a male or female body regardless as to how you feel - which I have no issue with)

I would except she's also lost nine consecutive matches so if she is a bloke those nine women are stronger blokes than her

Maybe this will help.

This is why the 'But they didn't win', 'they have been beaten', 'what does it matter,' type arguments really show a complete lack of understanding about competitive advantage.

The male athletes losing are losing because they when you considered their physical advantages, if they were elite level male athletes at the same level of peak performance as the female people that they were losing against, they would not have lost. They are not at any where near the level of exceptionality of the female athletes they are competing against.

In many instances, there performance rates as mediocre when compared to male athlete peak performance.

To be very clear, if the male athletes losing to those exceptional female athletes were as good and as fit and performing at their full potential as those elite athletes, they would have won.

In fact, several male athletes are competing in female events and setting records that female people may never break. Those male athletes are in almost comparable performance level as the exceptional female athletes, but their physical advantage is coming into play, so to speak.

Consider the physical advantage to constitute x% performance advantage over all. To achieve the same level of exceptionality of the female athletes, their performance will = peak female athlete performance + x%. Hence setting records that may not be broken.

If the female athletes are beating the male athletes and those athletes have male pubertal advantage, then they simply are not as good as the female athlete. In fact, if those male athletes with x% pubertal advantage tied with the exceptional female athlete, then by comparison, the female athlete is better.

So this point too is irrelevant for competition. But. Not for safety.

What you are supporting is, in effect, very dangerous for female athletes due to male people have on average 160+% more punch power than female people (that is not athletes, that is just the general population) and many other advantages. In fact, part of the punch power is derived from skeletal leverage that males have to give this power that female people do not have. And bone mass and density that is greater in male people than female people.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

This above is the review of 13 studies from Dr Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg and it shows these advantages, if anyone wishes to check for themselves.

This also shows that lowering testosterone simply does not remove the advantage gained by any degree of male puberty .

And this is an explanation of meaningful sports competition from philosopher Jon Pike who has a sports speciality.

Meaningful competition by Jon Pike

And referred to in this tweet:

”The argument that Khelif's advantage does not matter because it is 'small' and 'like Michael Phelps's advantages' is false.”

“I mean, 'false' as in 'refuted', 'demonstrated to be wrong’.”

”Here you go - see particularly pp. 8-15:”

https://x.com/runthinkwrite/status/1819323178973331569

Why ‘Meaningful Competition’ is not fair competition

6th Feb 2023

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00948705.2023.2167720

ABSTRACT

In this paper I discuss a new conception that has arrived relatively recently on the scene, in the context of the debate over the inclusion of transwomen (hereafter TW) in female sport. That conception is ‘Meaningful Competition’ (hereafter MC) – a term used by some of those who advocate for the inclusion of TW in female sport if and only if they reduce their testosterone levels. I will argue that MC is not fair. I understand MC as a substitute concept, as an attempt to substitute for the perfectly serviceable concept of fair competition. It is an attempt at conceptual engineering that should be resisted. This is important because some International Federations have accepted MC as good coin, and the underlying theory of MC, which I explicate for the first time, underpins the stance taken by the IOC (International Olympic Committee) in its Framework Document. To establish that the inclusion of TW in female sport meets the criteria of MC in the sense I explicate here, does not show that the inclusion of TW in female sport is fair. Such inclusion is not fair, and the proper currency of sport is fair competition. ‘Meaningful Competition’, on the other hand, is a snare and a delusion.

Getting back to that bone density. To be clear. This bone difference means stronger bones!

Female people have been proven to have bones that are more prone to breakage, particularly in the face. And they are more prone to concussion and brain damage due to their more delicate brain fibres. This has been studied and is now shaping Rugby guidelines for female participation, as an example.

Rugby concussion: Swansea University study into protecting women https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51434749

To those who use the 'but they didn't win' what do you believe will happen to a female with those more delicate bones and brain fibres when hit with punches that are 160+% harder than other female boxers?

I'm going by Khelifs assertion she is female and always has been

That proves nothing whatsoever about internal anatomy.

Thanks for the testosterone paper. Interesting, but disagrees with the systematic review linked in this piece https://theconversation.com/are-maternal-hormones-different-when-carrying-a-boy-or-a-girl-78348 which did find a rise throughout pregnancy but not a significant difference according to fetal sex.

And the top level of the rise is still way below normal male levels.

I don't believe people on MN are labelling this person as being transgender.

And if any person has a body formed around the potential to produce small gametes, regardless of whether they produce those or not, they are male.

The only relevant body part is whether they have testes or ovaries. And for sport, we can then go further and state that it is relevant whether those testes are producing testosterone, and whether that testosterone has been used at all by the body to virilise.

What part of the IBA testing do you disagree with OP? The IBA test stated that both boxers have XY chromosomes and have judged that their bodies have male pubertal advantage. ie. that their bodies have virilised with the testosterone that their bodies produce.

Therefore, it is very likely that they have the same or similar Difference of Sex Development that Semenya has. Which was proven to be 5ARD. Which means that Semenya has testes that work to produce the same levels of testosterone as a male born without a DSD and that has virilised Semenya's body.

Again, no other body part is relevant after the finding of testes in the body. Even when those are undescended.

I don't recall feminists saying things that differed to this on MN previously.

A graph produced by Rachel McKinnon may not be based on the most accurate data.