What is a woman?

[concretevase]

I just wanted to clarify what everyone thought this meant given recent events at the olympics.

A person born with a uterus and vagina, raised female, with boobs and has periods and the ability to carry and birth a child is not a woman?

Not necessarily....mine have run out. Plus the uterus might go as well.

@Littlepinkstarsbyradish

That graph is wrong. It looks to me as if it has been manipulated by someone (not you) because the pink and blue sections are the right shape but the blue bit has shifted along the bottom axis. The blue bit should start around 10nmol/L. The pink bit looks correct.
There is no overlap at all between testosterone levels of healthy men and women. Sometimes men have to artificially lower their testosterone while having cancer treatment, and women with cancer can have elevated levels of testosterone.

Sexual reproduction is a biological process of gamete fusion, therefore the sexes are biological realities, not people's identities or feelings. There are only and exactly two gametes, therefore only and exactly two sexes. The sex which has the function of producing small gametes is the male, the female has the function of producing large gametes. A woman is an adult human female.
In the case of a DSD in which genitalia are ambiguous at birth and the individual develops the phenotype of the opposite sex even after puberty, a decision can be made by the individual to present as if of the sex of which their phenotype most resembles. That is not earning the right to call yourself a woman - if you have the phenotype of the opposite sex it makes sense in some/most situations to be treated as if you were the opposite sex.

Khelif has a very clearly male phenotype, so this doesn't apply to him. And he shouldn't be punching women, whatever his own personal feelings or motivation.

Edited for clarity

"But she says she is not, never has been, is not trans, and there are people here that are labelling her as 'he' and not even seeing the irony in the argument."

People are calling this male a 'he' because they have been tested and shown to have XY chromosomes and a physical advantage over female people due to androgenisation from a male puberty. ie. they have been assessed to have male pubertal advantages.

Having male pubertal advantages means that this person produces and processes testosterone and therefore has testes and is male. I don't believe that people have been saying anything different on MN about who is male and who is female. I don't see any 'irony' here, unless you are choosing to ignore the two tests done by the IBA and are purely reading and accepting without question media articles and the IOC. The same people who have called Semenya 'a female with high testosterone' for years now, when the reality is that Semenya has testes (even Semenya now admits this) and has male levels of testosterone that virilised Semenya's body. Because Semenya is a male person.

The very same people are still calling Semenya a female and a woman and using almost the same story for Semenya as they are for Khelif.

The precedent has been set already for the IOC and the media to be judged as being predisposed to spreading misinformation on this. You seem to wish to believe them. Great. But do so knowing that they have been shown to be giving false information about Semenya in the past.

This maybe useful regarding testosterone levels in men and women.

https://womenssportspolicy.org/q10-dont-some-healthy-females-produce-testosterone-in-the-male-range/

It shows a different graph, showing different results.

Also, setting aside the occasional dot of female outlier, the solid chunk of men well below the normal male reference range is very odd. Especially for elite athletes, who are likely to be relatively young - so should have an average slightly above the general population average.

I think I prefer this one thanks.

Produced from the results from a study done by an Endocrinologist, Dr David Handelsman and not from an extreme transgender rights activist that has a background in philosophy.

Note the 'Semenya' line is the level that Semenya took the IOC to CAS to have overturned. That is the line that the IOC decided that male people with DSDs that produce testosterone and utilise it in their bodies had to suppress their testosterone to, to enable them to compete at the Olympics in those athletic events. The Hubbard line is the line that the IOC declared that males with trans identities had to suppress to.

Can you explain whether that chart from McKinnon includes suppressed testosterone or shows what their natural levels are? Or does it also include male people who have been castrated too?

@concretevase an interview with Khelif's trainer: https://www.lepoint.fr/sport/exclusif-jo-2024-imane-khelif-a-ete-aneantie-de-decouvrir-d-un-seul-coup-qu-elle-pourrait-ne-pas-etre-une-fille-09-08-2024-2567609_26.php

Confirms that Khelif has both a male karyotype and high testosterone levels.

@concretevase
A woman is an adult human female.

The elite male athletes with exceptionally low testosterone was explained on one of the medical clips on YouTube. If they are using testosterone outside competitions then their bodies stop producing it, when they stop it takes time for the body to catch up and start production again so you get a temporary dip. Basically any male that low is doping.

Doesn't the boxer have xy chromosomes? I also saw in an article (no idea if its true) that the boxer is infertile. The boxer in question is also said to produce more testosterone than a woman should. The boxer has been described as androgynous. I think if the boxers condition causes as a symptom, to be stronger, more muscular than a woman (genetically speaking) they should not be allowed to compete in women's sports.

any male that low is doping.

About half the men in the study. So it seems entirely possible some of the women were too.

But I don’t have a girl’s sensitivity, does that mean I am not a woman?

I missed who did that particular chart, 1 high pink will be Rachel another is probably Lia Thomas. No way did Rachel do that on sex and not gender so half the blue are probably female too.

Bodies arranged around the production of large gametes aka eggs whether or not they actually can produce them. Xx chromosomes.

Right. So another doctor confirms Karotype and testosterone level.

And confirmation that testosterone is being suppressed to ‘female’ range.

No female person in sport ever has to suppress their testosterone. Only male people.

And if they have to suppress their testosterone, it is evidence that their body has been virilised by that testosterone at puberty. Every day there is more and more being published that shows the massive inconsistencies in this particular case. Last night across the world a coach put their hand on Khelif’s chest. What male would do this to someone they viewed as female on media being streamed across the world when they seek to maintain credibility?

I'm going to get popcorn while I wait for op to realise she's bought the lie that these boxing olympians have any kind of female plumbing.

Testes all the way. possibly full male plumbing.. most likely unusable but may not be infertile. I'm willing to bet that that's all that's there.

XX

According to the IOC, a woman is either a man who says he is, or one of the subhumans who are useful for inadequate men to beat (literally and metaphorically) in the Olympics. Can't have athletically substandard dudes missing out or being forced to compete against other men, now, can we?

It is awful how much hate this woman has received. Presumably she has a vagina if she was assumed female at birth. She would never be accepted as male, especially where she comes from, and now she isn’t being accepted as female. She identifies as female, has been brought up as female, to me she is female. If she has a condition that gives her physical advantages on par with men then she should not be allowed to box with other women (I haven’t read any definite answers on this just a lot of assumptions). Calling her male is just offensive.

So another doctor confirms Karotype and testosterone level.

And confirmation that testosterone is being suppressed to ‘female’ range.

And confirms the IBA disqualification was based on tests, not politics.

Presumably she has a vagina if she was assumed female at birth.

Invalid premise.

Men have vaginas now?

Stop trying to keep this improbable belief alive. There was most likely no vagina present on this athlete at birth.

No.

But if they have one of a few DSDs that lead to misidentification of sex at birth they may well have an inpouching of the perineum that can look superficially like a vagina. It isn't one though.

Any evidence to back that theory up? Nothing I have read suggests she has ever identified as anything other than female

It doesn't matter what imane identifies as what does matter is what body type and that is now confirmed as male.