What is a woman?

[concretevase]

I just wanted to clarify what everyone thought this meant given recent events at the olympics.

A person born with a uterus and vagina, raised female, with boobs and has periods and the ability to carry and birth a child is not a woman?

Adult human female (no need to complicate things).

Oh, and to round off my logical puzzle, woman, man, male and female are all sex-based terms and always have been.

what in the islamophobia is this comment all about

But these boxers can't get pregnant. They have (presumably) undescended testes, they went through male puberty, they failed a sex test. They have a Y chromosome.

Right so you're female then. What's this got to do with these boxers?

I think I'd misunderstood where you were coming from.

Yes, the experience of transwomen bears no relation to women. They cannot know what it's like to be a woman, because they aren't one. Whatever they imagine to be "living like a woman" is just that: imagination.

There isn't a right way or a wrong way to "be a woman", but you first need to be a woman...

I think the more interesting question is how do you know so much about the biology of these boxers?! So much more than anyone else!

I've no idea, to be honest, what you are talking about. Your post is all over the placce and very confused. What is it you are trying to say?

You do know that Khelif has none of the attributes you describe...because of XY chromosomes and having gone through male puberty?

@concretevase I can guarantee you that those boxers do not have a uterus, nor do they have periods, nor do they have ovaries. I guarantee you that they have testes, maybe internally but they have them. There is no overlap between the lowest level of males testosterone and the highest level of women's.

They are not women because despite ambiguous genitalia at birth due to a dsd they are male bodied.

Erm... the people describing them as women haven't a fucking clue what a women is? 🤷‍♂️

Only X chromosomes

OP, is your issue that being female has nothing to do with looking feminine? Do you think people are writing the boxers off because they don’t look feminine?

If so, never fear! There’s much more to it than that!

Radical idea here, can we define a man instead, why is the focus on what is a woman. Maybe that will offer some clarity to those in the room who may need to consider going to spec savers.

I think the OP's comments are a critique on the hi-jacking of the term "woman" by trans ideologists? That it's meaning has been twisted away from what most sane people would once have recognised as self-evident?

But they don't hang around in the uterus, they sit in the fallopian tubes after being expelled by the ovaries.

No.

It's that there's
a) no publicly available evidence for the xy chromosome result - if there is please can someone post the source?
b) if you read the famous lancet article on the trans debate which covers xy chromosomes and sex and dsds you will realise that a Y chromosome is not a literal letter Y, it is four chromatids of differing lengths and therefore not a neatly packaged thing
c) evidence for higher testosterone, which essentially means nothing. I am currently pregnant with a baby boy, my testosterone levels are also above the cutoff point so presumably that means I am male too? despite having a human being kicking me in the ribs right now!?
d) mn keyboard warriors saying Imane Khelif is a man is just offensive to someone who was born female and raised female, and had to face so
much sexism in her life to even be able to enter boxing. I feel bad for her.
e) mn keyboard warriors are actually using the same argument as the TRAs is ironic
f) comments like the one above about Muslim countries pisses me off
g) snopes and other fact check organisations say she was born and lived her entire life as female, and is not trans, and has not transitioned. She is not a man and she has never been a man.

@concretevase your argument is built on sand. Individuals with XY chromosomes - even those with DSDs that make their external genitalia appear female - are unable to have had periods or carry a child without significant medical intervention. With medical intervention, those things would only be possible for individuals with Swyer Syndrome, as that's the only DSD effecting XY individuals which allows for the development of a uterus. In fact, the failure to start menstruating at the normal age is typically the trigger to start the investigations that leads to diagnosis.

If you're interested in the science behind it then https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com/read/sex-development-charts?fbclid=IwY2xjawEksNBleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHakzc8C69HIhjIHE82ugsInRI8ZNhGB_obvFXxHQZunyUmQlhQ3zeMXrrA_aem_meSI8FRha93_hSQydn4U5Q is good.

@Shortshriftandlethal

Do you think maybe it's difficult to understand my point because it's not part of the binary simplified discourse and I haven't jumped on the 'he's a man!!!' bandwagon?

I see the possibility that a woman, who was born female, who was brought up female, who had to face sexism on her boxing journey because 'it's not feminine', who was part of controversial chromosome testing where I have seen no actual publicly available evidence that she has xy chromosomes, who has female body parts, who has high levels of testosterone, I think she has wrongly been accused of being male when all along she's just some girl who is a boxer. I just think it's worth considering this point. And that in the event that someone has all the female anatomy and things I describe above, how awful that people all over the world are going round being like 'it's a man it's a man'.

If what she is saying in her own defence is true, how awful for her.

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/5/fa9lt6ypbwx5su3z20xxnfzgtao0gy

3 Wire Sports has seen the test results and a June 5, 2023 IBA letter to the IOC that says tests of Khelif, one in New Delhi, a prior test in Istanbul at the 2022 world championships, “concluded the boxer’s DNA was that of a male consisting of XY chromosomes.”

For both Khelif and Lin, the New Delhi test – from, as IBA disclosed Monday, the independent Dr Lal PathLabs – consists of three pages. In part:

The first page provides, along with basic identifying information for each athlete and date and time of sample collection, result summary – “abnormal” – and interpretation – “chromosome analysis reveals Male karyotype.” The second page offers photographic representation of the 22 paired autosomes and then, for each athlete, further depicts an X and a Y chromosome. Page three makes plain that the lab is a “national reference lab” and, as well, accredited by CAP, the Northfield, Illinois-based College of American Pathologists, and certified by the ISO, the Swiss-based International Organization for Standardization.

But Khelif is a man, who based on the publicly-available information, has a DSD only men can have.

He wasn't born female, he was misidentified by the doctor only having a cursory glance at what looked like a vulva.

You seem to be conflating facts about you with facts about imane. Yes, you have all those female organs.

Imane- well obviously we can’t tell much about internal organs by looking at Imane boxing.

However… the IOC corrected themselves when they said it’s not a DSD. So it’s a DSD, or they wouldn’t have needed to correct themselves. And that ties in with the tests seen by a journalist/edic, the IBO WBA and EUBA.

Nice bit of racial stereotyping.

But I thought his fallopian tubes were clearly visible?

Or something.

@concretevase I would agree that it would be awful for Imane to overcome all that as a woman, and now face this challenge, however…

Would a woman who has overcome all the things you mention be seen like this?

Firstly, everyone (including you OP) who has an absolute position on this seems to know far more about the biology of these individuals than has been released to the press.

Secondly, if this person was assigned/observed female at birth and brought up as female, that may be highly relevant to their life, social context, mental health, etc, but it is irrelevant to their status as a male or female boxer.