Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

[beachcitygirl]

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

hey I like lemon cake :(

I think expecting any reasonable manners from someone that starts a conversation and wanders off to do something else and is rude about it on return is pointless.

Then you will have to follow your own path. This deity is mine.

Cheerie bye you won't be missed.

Or even mine! Oops!

Bloody Nick Cave is going to be the death of me!

Nice. Your colours are showing!

OP, I'm not meaning this as a 'gotcha' or 'bad faith' question, but I genuinely want to know what you think a woman is and who can be a woman if womanhood has nothing to do with being biologically female. This is the crux of the issue for me. A woman just is an adult human female, so if the definiton is changed...what makes someone a woman? Would love to hear an answer, as so many people on the other side just don't answer.

@NickCaveisonMN yup I'm human and when dogpiled on by people being vile I respond like for like occasionally

@beachcitygirl If you have time to keep coming back with posts that aren't saying much except dismissing other posters, surely you have time to post something relevant to the "good faith" discussion you wanted?

I mean it's fine if you don't have time and plan to return tomorrow, like you keep saying, but you are still posting. Being rude and dismissive to those who are trying to engage you in the discussion you asked for...

Aye me too.
We should form a cabal against the lemon cake deniers and go to war with them. Let's try and get the cherry cake brigade on our side first. I reckon one good sneaky suprise attack and we could possibly wipe out the lemon cake critical brigade.
Narrator's voice "and so were sown the first seeds of the war that would eventually tear the mumsnetters apart in the most bloody infighting even seen on the internet that came to be known as the TERF Patesserie War of 2023.

As in every other identikit good faith thread -

Could you point out the transphobia? Why is it concerns are automatically labelled as transphobic? Are we not allowed concerns?

(That's a rhetorical question btw).

And still you don't engage cos you have only come on here to goad.

We see through it.

Every single fucking time.

It's the whole control the room shite with 'i will come back tomorrow' routine too. Yawn. Boring.

We will await your great morning lecture about how you know it all and then suddenly have to run off to your next important meeting cos you have an important role in real life unlike all these awful feminist dead beats.

Go on. Surprise us, by having something profound...

Spoiler: these threads never do. They always go the same way. Eventually the OP gets bored or the other posters stumble upon a subject of interest which makes the thread worthwhile but it's NEVER instigated by the 'good faither'.

We really need a decent meme for 'good faithers' every time they plop on.

The sea lioning one is lame.

That's thirteen.

Yeah, choosing @ArabeIIaScott to vent at. Not wise. Given she's a very much loved poster here. You will just get everyone's back up even more. Considering she was just responding to your abhorrent comments even more so.

I like rock cakes.

Throws fairy cake using typical girly underhand method.

Sighs picks cake up from floor by foot.

Eats.

Shall we get a coffee first then go to war?

I’ve been educated!

I learned a new word ‘automagically’ from @lechiffre55 - I hope it wasn’t a typo, but if it was a typo it’s the best typo ever ❤️

And the only thing that has (metaphorically) been stuffed down my throat is cherry madeira cake.

Deffo haven’t heard anything convincing as to how men can be women though.

@RedToothBrush
We really need a decent meme for 'good faithers' every time they plop on.
The sea lioning one is lame.

I propose Punxsutawney Phil, as in next time one of these gets started "ahh I see Phil's awoken in his burrow again"

I'm in. I'll get my cloak out of the closet.

Sure let's fill up on cake and then hit the hard stuff. A few expressos and we'll be unstoppable as long as we don't pass any nice shops.

”Exactly the type on so so so many of these threads. So terrified of anyone being able to state their thoughts & talk to others who are not wedded to their views that they snap like a cornered rat.”

The dishonesty, the denigration and the deep abiding prejudice in this paragraph is startling.

Not one of these posters on this thread are ‘terrified’ of other thoughts. Not one. You have started a thread to shame other posters. Right from the start you are fucking offensive and dictating who on a public discussion board should and shouldn’t post.

The “There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.” line was as offensive. As if regular posters on this board don’t expect other people to go and do their own research and make their own fucking decisions. We provide links to start, but no, opinions are not spoon fed here, we do not ‘create’ more people who believe that sex cannot change and sometimes sex matters here.

Why should any person engage with you at all?

@WeeBisom

I absolutely will answer but in short (very short) & then I'm off for the evening

Womanhood is a social construct. So anyone in society that feels that constraint or feels that they don't fit in the box that society has placed upon them by calling them boys or girls or men or women is welcome to the word. That's what a woman is.
Anyone who says they are a woman is.
And yes I would like to remove any distinction between the sexes. It's never done females any good.

Gender is man made for sure. So is a table, I still ate my dinner off mine an hour ago. It's still real and definable and impossible to deny imho.

Biological sex is real but all the stuff that's piled on re restrictions, femininity, masculinity, and so on is a mistaken and restrictive way to build society. Places people with rules and restrictions and there are punishments for stepping outside the rules.

Making a society on a part of a body is nonsense.

We could just as easily be making our society about another bodily part. Height for example. It's just as random (and wrong)

There are of course mountains to climb to move away from hegemonic masculinity but recognising that some
Already have is a good start.

I also believe we should not belittle minorities in word or deed.

What is a woman?

Please give a description which is definitive enough to be used in a legal framework.

How does this interact with the sex based protections already in the Equality Act?

If being a woman isn't biologically based, how does work in sport where the physical differences between males and females may present an additional risk to females?

If being a woman isn't biologically based, how does this accommodate and cater for the specific needs of vulnerable women who have suffered abuse or belong to certain religious beliefs? Do this lead to the marginalisation of these groups if they feel unable to be in the presence of penises? What effect does this have on society and the engagement of women in public spaces?

How do we ensure that confused teens are trans and not gay, being coercively controlled by parents, autistic, sexually abused or simply trying to fit in with their mates?

There you go. That's what you wanted.

Get your teeth into that.

(Watches that count go up)

It's alright I've got loads of those fold up shopping bags in my coat pocket.

Oh for the love of god I hate the new name thing on threads!!!!!!

How original!

Post shaming posts, denigrate regular posters on the board and then claim to be dogpiled.

Readers, this is why posters such as OP use shaming posts. They get the reaction they expect and claim to be ‘piled on’ so they can confirm to themselves and others how no one engages.