Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

[beachcitygirl]

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

Why are you attaching masculinity/femininity to sex surely that's a huge part of what people see gender being?

Male/female hasn't got anything to do with masculinity or femininity - you can be a masculine female or a feminine male.

Men no matter how they dress or what words they use to describe themselves can never be described as a minority.

I'm interested in this too, not as a gotcha. It's clear that although gender doesn't exist as a biological reality in the same way as sex exists, it's still present in our culture - and every other culture that I know of - as a social construct. A bit like national borders: you can't point to them on the ground, but everyone acknowledges that they're there. And I think they go far beyond the stereotype of high heels and giggles - the broad concept of femaleness covers a lot, including some pretty fierce and aggressive characteristics, especially when you look back at different historical periods and cultures.

I find it mystifying that a. many trans people apparently aren't content with assuming the opposite gender as a cultural concept , but insist on assuming the biological sex as well, or being treated as though they had; and b. why so many only buy into a very narrow set of parameters of that concept, eg the high heels representing femaleness, the short hair representing maleness.

I need to do some more reading...

@beachcitygirl

When you come back in the morning:

My question would be what is trans? Is it a sex? Is it gender? Is it a sexuality?

The T is part of LGBTQ+. Lesbian Gay and Bisexual are sexuality. Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic in law.

But entering women's spaces like prisons toilets and sports is an argument based on sex. Sex is a protected characteristic in law.

Trans individuals are also a protected characteristic in law in the equality act.

I just don't understand. Is trans sex or sexual orientation? Please help me understand

@HatThatWearsYou I did I made a Huge start. It's a big issue, I want to do it justice, unlike some who are here solely to be nasty. I'm popping on and off as and when I can.

I assumed that's how most posters do it?

So far I've been told to fuck off
Told I'm not responding when I did
Told off for having my tea
Told off for going to my mums
Told I won't come back
Told I won't be listened to
Told I'm sea-lioning
Told I'm boring
Told I'm ridiculous
Met with dog whistles from post one. (Not everyone has been here on these boards only for 10 years)
Told I'm not allowed to think Arabella is a rude arse because the oldies cabal like her
Told if I stop commenting it's because I'm not acting in good faith
Told I should have put whole day aside to talk this through
Told my responses aren't good enough (I note no actual engagement with what I said though - unsurprisingly

This is why so so so many of you all
Think the same because you treat anyone who thinks differently like absolute shit & mock their posts and post stupid gifs and recipes like spoiled little kids.

There are a few decent intelligent posters who are gc. Thanks to them. I see you. But god the vitriol and childishness is moronic and no wonder people don't stink around.

Can transwomen give birth?

I’m quite enjoying the idea of Nick Cave and his pocketful of fold up shoppers

Op, thanks for replying. My problem is that you say 'anyone who says they are a woman is [a woman]" but that makes womanhood a totally empty concept devoid of any meaning. Anyone who says they are a woman is a woman...but what are they saying they are? What IS a woman? They must have some idea of what a woman is before they say they are one! When I say I'm a woman it's becuase I'm female. But when Eddie Izzard says they are a woman it can't be becuase they are female - so what's the basis for calling oneself a woman?

You say you don't want society organised along the basis of sex,and body parts, but in that case why organise society along the totally meaningless concept of gender?

Yes, the stuff that is piled on biological sex like femininity is mistaken and restrictive. This is what second wave feminists call 'gender'. They wanted to abolish gender while respecting the physical differences between the sexes. So females still need special health care for their bodies, facilities for breast feeding, separate sport faciliites etc.

@beachcitygirl

Just repeating part of an earlier post of mine as it's been buried a bit. Would b interested in a response.

There are real differences between the life experiences of men and women, even if they were in the most equal non-discriminatory tolerant and wonderful society with zero crime. Even then, you'd have to recognise that women take on the burden of reproduction, the risk and the upfront effort, simply because of their sex. You'd have to recognise that women and men face different health issues, simply because of their sex. Sports would still need to be categorised by sex for fairness and safety. I'm sure there are other things too.

And of course, we are nowhere near that kind of society. The fact is that 98% of all violence is perpetrated by men. Women are at risk from men, especially in situations where they are vulnerable. Women cannot identify which men are the risk, hence we safeguard by putting restrictions on all men in certain circumstances. Men with a "gender identity" should not be an exception to this.

So anyone who you've not directly replied to or referenced has been transphobic, vile and called you names....?

What's the base line for transphobia then? :/

I feel like my views are quite middle ground and compromise centred compared to others who take a more hard line approach, I haven't raised any gotcha's, I haven't insulted or thrown names - What makes a conversation "in good faith" to you, if you're assuming everyone asking questions is doing so to start a fight...?

Maybe some of us are open to the fact that we may well have been radicalised.
I saw a post on a thread just the other day someone was speaking about (Paraphrasing here)
"all these super intelligent people agreeing with TRA's, I feel like I MUST be missing something!"

A lot of us still feel this way and are still seeking out further understanding even if currently the only logical place for us to sit is on the GC side.

You're pushing people further into extremity by being so antagonistic and painting us all with the same brush simply because we asked questions?

Womanhood is a social construct.
How?
Womanhood is having periods. It's having babies (or being unable to have babies but your value is based on baby making). It's being discriminated against on the basis of sex not the concept of womanhood - you know 'pregnancy costing a fortune' for employers
It's being a smaller average physical size which makes you less able to do certain things compared to an average male. This could be 'reaching the top shelf' or winning a world heavyweight title in boxing.
It's being the target for male sexual desire, which doesn't stop because you are lesbian / you say no / you look like dogshit. This includes sexually motivated crimes which women are significantly disproportionately underrepresented.

Biological sex is real but all the stuff that's piled on re restrictions, femininity, masculinity, and so on is a mistaken and restrictive way to build society
Explain why women's sport was invented. Then get back to me.

And yes I would like to remove any distinction between the sexes. It's never done females any good.
Oh goodie. So now all products will be made to 'default human' setting. Cracking.

Go read 'invisible women' and see how gender neutral makes things even worse for women. It doesn't improve things for them.

Gender is man made for sure. So is a table, I still ate my dinner off mine an hour ago. It's still real and definable and impossible to deny imho.
Without using stereotypes, explain gender.

Now back to my earlier question: please define 'women' in a way that can be used in law to prevent discrimination against women.

I can ask my MIL for the recipe for the fruit cake that just appears every fortnight. I don't know how to DM on MN so I'd have to stick it in a thread.

Fifteen.

You've now got several posts from me, that you can engage with in terms of questions.

You also said you were going, but haven't. Why not? I thought you would engage tomorrow.

You can't do it "justice" by asking for good faith and then not acting in good faith. It's really simple.

I came to this thread looking forward to an engaging, thought provoking discussion. I'm quite disappointed although unsurprised.

You have set the tone from the start. If you don't want people to digress into gifs and silliness then engage with the thread.

I said in a different thread a couple of days ago that we cannot have a discussion without a common understanding of the language surrounding it. This is why you are asked for your definition of woman - clearly this is not the gotcha as you believe it is, it is people wanting to understand your viewpoint so they can discuss it with you.

I see you have now sort of kind of answered the question of your definition of woman.
The problem I have with your reply is your wording (apologies!). You say womanhood is a social construct, but what are women? What is a woman? I am genuinely asking not being provocative.

Do you understand that the biological differences are important? As a PP said what about the transwoman who has a heart attack. If we treat that person as a woman, the likely outcome would be an unnecessary death.

So in terms of health matters for example, it's important to recognise biological reality isn't it?

There isn't really a place for "be kind" in triage I don't think - she says with 0 medical training or knowledge.

OP you admit that biological sex is real.
Yet you say anyone who says they are a woman IS A WOMAN.

How do you believe both of those things?

What word should we use for adult human females?
If the word "woman" can also include biological males, or ten year old boys, or 90 year old men? Do we need a new word?

You must see that your definition makes no sense.
If a woman is anyone who SAYS they are a woman, WHAT IS IT that they are saying they are? It still doesn't define what a woman IS.

Can a 2 year old boy be a woman if he says he is?

It must also work the other way then? Can a natal woman be a transwoman because she says she is? If not, why not?

Op, please listen.

To channel my inner Dame Edna Everage and in homage to the late, great, Barry Humphries, I really do mean this in a kindly way - you appear to be almost three quarters terf.

You clearly see the nonsensical gender stereotypes that are imposed on people from society. And that those imposed on women are very detrimental. We should be compliant, nurturing, decorative, subservient, and provide sex on demand. That's when we're not being teary, irrational, and gold digging.

As opposed to the gender stereotyping for men which is much more advantageous. They are strong, rational, logical, good leaders, dependable, clever and worth listening to.

So far, I'm sure we are in agreement.

And then somehow we diverge, wildly. This is the reason why I think we do:

You don't actually think that transwomen are really women. You know full well they are men, and you believe that if they are displaying typically 'female characteristics', they should be allowed to do so as it bucks the societally imposed trend.

Which it might well do, if they wouldn't mind still calling themselves men.

But they don't.

In order to inhabit the stereotypical female characteristics, they then go and call themselves women!

"I'm a woman. You must call me a woman. You must give me women's rights and women spaces. And you must all agree."

It's not bucking any trend! It's not sticking two fingers up at female oppression, or a sexist society. It's actually reinforcing the whole concept that certain gender stereotyping is for women.

How much more innovative, progressive, and liberating it would be for men to say I am inhabiting what I consider female characteristics, or female gender stereotypes and I'm a bloke, so fuck you world.

That's a 'gender critical' position.

It's that the only difference is largely biological. All the rest is gender. And women don't have to display female gender, and the men who display a 'female gender' shouldn't be calling themselves women in order to do it.

As a longtime lurker Im finding this thread fascinating. I think the OPs posts are nicely representative of my experience of the more intelligent variants of the ‘other side‘ arguments ie the belief that GC feminists are somehow looking to enforce stereotypes rather than abolish them, and therefore find TW abhorrent because they wear the ‘wrong‘ clothes etc etc.

OP, I’d suggest that JKRs offending tweet sums my stance up perfectly — someone will correct me, but the one that starts ‘wear whatever you like, call yourself whatever you like etc…‘
Biological sex really IS a thing and sometimes it matters a great deal.

Btw @beachcitygirl I am studiously ignoring the offensive comments in your post I quoted but I saw them. You aren't making yourself look any better really and still fall a bit short in that example of what my understanding of good faith discussion is.

Lay off insulting people and just stick to the conversation at hand, I guarantee you'll find the thread a lot more pleasant and thought provoking in the long term.

@RedToothBrush because I felt like it. I've got ten mins until I have to go to bed. Ten mins and I had a quick look.

Im
Not sure what you think you're achieving with your petty wee numbers game. I won't be engaging with you further. There's plenty of posters who are not petty.

And that's why you struggle to define the word woman.

Because in order for a man to be called a woman, you have to describe him in terms of female gender stereotypes.

Try it. In your head, and having every single word in the English language at your disposal, try to describe how a man would think he was actually a woman. Just try and think what he could possibly say.

Unless you can define woman you can not define discrimination.

If you can't see sex, you can't see sex discrimination. Its hidden. It could still be happening but you can define it so you cant see it.

At least being able to see it, you are aware of it and can provide protections.

This is why a sex based definition matters in law so you can make the law enforcable.

If you decide that being a woman is gender based not sex based you need to come up with a definition to use in law to describe what a woman is. So if that happens to be based on what we present ourselves, you need to be able to define it. If being a woman is just based on what you say you are, then it's easy for anyone acting in bad faith to exploit women (gender based of course) by saying they too are women because this definition can't be challenged. Thus there is no protection in law for women, if your definition is purely a feeling that doesn't have describable boundaries in law.

And if gender replaces sex, then what happens to those women who have a female sex and those who have male sex when it comes to discrimination such as pregnancy related discrimination?

This actually matters. It's not being difficult. It's about establishing how our society which is controlled by laws works in a coherent, consistent way to prevent abuses of power.

Womanhood is a social construct. So anyone in society that feels that constraint or feels that they don't fit in the box that society has placed upon them by calling them boys or girls or men or women is welcome to the word. That's what a woman is.

So what is a man? If anyone can say they are one do they immediately get higher pay, more muscular, larger lung capacity and an ability to procreate without gestation or bleed every month?

I thank you for this. It makes sense. It is how you have arrived at the view that you have. Unfortunately, for me, it doesn't answer the conflict between my rights to decency, privacy and safety and TW's want to be validated.

Honestly OP - just tell us precisely what your objections were, and what your friend said to change your mind. Little paragraphs with no waffle or insults. You can expand on each paragraph if nobody understands it, but start small.