Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Appeal Tribunal hearing Thread 19

[ickky]

Allison Bailey has tweeted her intention to appeal the Stonewall decision.

twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1572133035335716865

The Tribunal started on 25th April, witness testimony concluded on the 26th May. Closing arguments for council was on the 20th June.

There was also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/allison-bailey-vs-stonewall-and-garden

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC )
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = Judge Goodman, Mr M. Reuby and Ms Darmas

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?
Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2
Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3
Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4
Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5
Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6
Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7
Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8
Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9
Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10
Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11
Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12
Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13
Thread 14 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556407-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-14
Thread 15 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556803-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-15
Thread 16 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4557036-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-16
Thread 17 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4561850-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-17
Thread 18 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4574654-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-18

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, 25 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Cathryn McGahey - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - Head clerk at GCC (24 May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing (25 May)
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC (25 May)
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge (26 May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers (26 May)

Closing arguments for AB, GCC, and SW (20 June)

Allison Bailey's Witness Statement

allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Witness-Statement-of-Allison-Bailey.pdf
Supplementary Statement
allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/C-Supplementary-Witness-Statement.pdf
Closing Statement
allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/CLOSING-SUBMISSIONS-FINAL.pdf

The Reserved Judgement (forth one down)

www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/ms-a-bailey-v-stonewall-equality-ltd-and-others-2202172-slash-2020

exploring and improving trans, intersex and gender diverse peoples experiences of end-of-life care and after-death services

Um, does this mean supporting the people doing the dying or the people grieving? Because I'm wondering what anyone's experience of an after-death service is once they're dead. I can only assume it's to do with recording of information on death certificates.

Nothing as far as I am aware.

Medical data is special category data, I understand.

https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/lawful-basis/special-category-data/what-is-special-category-data/#:~:text=If%20you%20carry%20out%20any,Article%209%20condition%20for%20processing.

I have visions now of George, Timmy the dog, and Fanny and Quentin Kirrin traipsing along behind in the woods.

It's about as believable.

Yes, I know - that’s why I’m so concerned about what’s happened. Or potentially concerned I suppose, since those who have been affected can’t share all the details publicly. (Yet?)

@GoodHeavens99 I was surprised to see them tweet they were part time Civil Service. https://x.com/moira_robin/status/1790064402772668836?s=61&t=W8z-NdrPTYy21FuiQuezcw

I’ve also noticed a concerted effort to dismiss Cass whilst remaining silent on Jo Phoenix. Whilst they tried to dismiss Rachel Meade’s win as being limited, again silence on the damages awarded particularly the training aspect.

Unsurprisingly, they have blocked me on Twitter, so I can't read that post, unfortunately.
But, i get the gist.

RMW appeared on GB News Free Speech Nation and attempted to discredit the Cass Report, and defend the WPATH files.

I mean, you have to get up pretty early in the morning to outwit Andrew Doyle.
And let me tell you, RMW doesn't succeed.

'We're going on a corpse hunt.' 😃

Fair play to KM though, that seems a very worthy endeavour.

Thanks to everyone for your posts.

I've been down the rabbit hole of cadaver dog training now. There are some artificial products available but traditionally they are trained on real human blood, bone, hair, teeth and human tissue. While your friendly dentist or hairdresser may be able to help out with some of these, and apparently human bone is readily available on the internet, there are obvious issues with legally obtaining human tissue.

It's a massive fucking grift. Paid for by taxpayers and donations to charities.

Kirrin is a queer, trans and neurodiverse person

All humans are neurodiverse. Does he mean neurodivergent? Bit of an awkward mistake if so.

It is difficult to train a dog to recognise your pronouns and to ignore your sex?

No small talent for disregarding the disagreeable seems to be a recurring theme with Gender Woo.

I think after-death care may involve cosmetic presentation by the morticians (standards vary).

There's also, depending on those responsible, potential difficulties registering death certificates etc. Plus the rare occasions when a coroner's care may be involved.

After-death care can be quite broad, particularly complex if there are estrangements between parties etc.

Inability to see or acknowledge unintended consequences?

That would be fine if it wasn't explicit there too often there very much is an explicit preferred outcome...

Which in the context of this hearing...

I'm listening to this now, not watching the footage. Observations:

1. RMW's voice. Jeez.
2. What a load of bloviating shite.
3. How dare RMW use children as cannon fodder for RMW's wishes and lifestyle choices?

They are currently working on two projects. The first focuses on exploring and improving trans, intersex and gender diverse peoples experiences of end-of-life care and after-death services.

Given the age of trans people generally even late transitioning males, I wouldn't have thought there was a huge market for this unless there is a disproportionate number dying somewhat prematurely...

... Just saying it seems very niche.

@teawamutu

Yep,
Yep, and
Yep.

I thought this too. I can't remember from the first trial why the tribunal decided that KM didn't know that GCC was a diversity champion member. Was it just on his word?

Thanks - my family generally don’t want to see the deceased’s body again after the immediate death. Have never been to an open casket funeral either, it’s just not common at all in my circles. So I’ve never had to consider anything related to morticians etc other than the funeral director asking whether we’d like to provide clothes for the deceased.

Would you have any insight into which aspects particularly cause problems for “trans, intersex and gender diverse peoples” then? I get difficulties around estrangements and around who makes the decisions could make things tricky, but estrangements happen for all sorts of reasons in all sorts of families.

I get the impression that it's all about policing pronouns - making sure everyone is referring to the deceased in the right way. I really can't see it being about preparing dead bodies but I guess you never know.

Was genuinely going to say 'that's a bit niche, that'.

I agree that the waiting times are appalling, but it is appalling across the board in the NHS, everyone is waiting years for treatment.

No trans person applied to be on the review team, I understand it was open to applications?

The upward trend in those presenting to Gids peaked in 2019, then started to slightly decline, not so much a plateau but it could be it is no longer fashionable!

Understanding what Cass says is really difficult! Oh us mere mortals are too stupid to understand the true meaning.

No evidence for the Do Nothing approach. I thought that this was the norm (watchful waiting), up until certain people joined mermaids!

If they had good evidence that it was helpful for a large group, I'm sure we would have seen it and it certainly would have been included in the Cass Report.

RMW says at the end of that interview that gender incongruence is a psychiatric condition.

Of course. Silly me! 😃